Are our complaints all but invisible?
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If we don't sign up on Microsoft's forums (requires a Passport account, boys and girls), do they even see our complaints about Visual Studio? I'm not inclined to get a "passport" just to identify problems for them that should have been fixed before the product was released. I mean seriously, as liuttle as I've looked at the product, I can imagine finding dozens of other problems. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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If we don't sign up on Microsoft's forums (requires a Passport account, boys and girls), do they even see our complaints about Visual Studio? I'm not inclined to get a "passport" just to identify problems for them that should have been fixed before the product was released. I mean seriously, as liuttle as I've looked at the product, I can imagine finding dozens of other problems. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
What is so bad about getting a passport account? Being able to register bugs and make suggestions directly through the IDE is not worth registering for a passport account?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
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If we don't sign up on Microsoft's forums (requires a Passport account, boys and girls), do they even see our complaints about Visual Studio? I'm not inclined to get a "passport" just to identify problems for them that should have been fixed before the product was released. I mean seriously, as liuttle as I've looked at the product, I can imagine finding dozens of other problems. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
I'm willing to bet that Tom Archer and a few other CP/MS oriented people take notes. I've often wondered but there's a gold-mine of real feedback here and you would hope the boys at Microsoft are reading it. If not just let your comments sit here for a bit. Marc Clifton will pick up on them and let the boys at Microsoft know. A recent post I read here showed Marc's comments being some of the most visible with regards to the latest VS release. :) I bet Tom Archer (sorry to call you out by name hope that's okay) sees this stuff though and makes note of it. He seems to drop some useful information here to just us at times and I appreciate that. I'm sure he's taking notes. Yeah, passport didn't take off nearly the way Microsoft would have wanted. They have one more mechanism in a sea of mechanisms. I think they thought everyone would use their system so that sites like CP used it and many others. It didn't happen now it's just like all the other sites I go to. I use roboform and I have more than 100+ different registered sign-ins for message boards etc... It's sick. Kind of wish more people had gone with passport. Sure would be easier. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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If we don't sign up on Microsoft's forums (requires a Passport account, boys and girls), do they even see our complaints about Visual Studio? I'm not inclined to get a "passport" just to identify problems for them that should have been fixed before the product was released. I mean seriously, as liuttle as I've looked at the product, I can imagine finding dozens of other problems. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Yes, I believe so. A question for you though--what do you think about the "give us feedback" concept in general? While the giving side of me thinks it's a great idea, so that the product can be better for us all, the "getting" side of me says, why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation? (And yes, being an MVP is great compensation, but not everyone is, and they pay a lot of money for a product that has problems, and then you're expected to report those problems for free? :~ ) Thoughts? Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
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Yes, I believe so. A question for you though--what do you think about the "give us feedback" concept in general? While the giving side of me thinks it's a great idea, so that the product can be better for us all, the "getting" side of me says, why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation? (And yes, being an MVP is great compensation, but not everyone is, and they pay a lot of money for a product that has problems, and then you're expected to report those problems for free? :~ ) Thoughts? Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Marc Clifton wrote:
why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation?
To me it doesn't come down to compensation it comes down to follow-up. If I had some way to know and track my submitted bugs and I could see when fixes were implemented or warm-bodies would provide work-arounds I'd do it. I never send in the auto-report thing that comes from XP and I don't give feedback on Microsoft products though I pretty much do on all the other products I own. With Microsoft I use their stuff because I generally like it and you generally have to in some degree or another if you want to eat well. My frustration is the total lack of traction you have with Microsoft as one of their customers. I spend several thousand a year on MSDN subscriptions and I get 4 support incidents and message boards and all that jazz. But as a paying customer there's generally a lack of traction unless you want to spend money for paid support or your issue qualifies for free support (like all the Windows Update problems do). Microsoft has demonstrated their lack of interest in the little-guys who supports Microsoft with code and skills for medium-sized businesses. That's a real downer. Yet again. I don't feel like I have any traction with them and if a better product came along I'd jump ship in such a hurry. I spend $500 a month or $6000 a year with another company that I love. They are a huge company and they know me by name. Their leadership contacts me directly for my advice and feedback on everything they do. I love that. This year alone I've helped sell close to $100,000 in Microsoft related products in desktops and servers and Microsoft doesn't even know who I am. That's frustrating. When the right company comes along I'll probably forget who Microsoft is just as easily and the scary part for Microsoft is I'm not the only one... - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation?
To me it doesn't come down to compensation it comes down to follow-up. If I had some way to know and track my submitted bugs and I could see when fixes were implemented or warm-bodies would provide work-arounds I'd do it. I never send in the auto-report thing that comes from XP and I don't give feedback on Microsoft products though I pretty much do on all the other products I own. With Microsoft I use their stuff because I generally like it and you generally have to in some degree or another if you want to eat well. My frustration is the total lack of traction you have with Microsoft as one of their customers. I spend several thousand a year on MSDN subscriptions and I get 4 support incidents and message boards and all that jazz. But as a paying customer there's generally a lack of traction unless you want to spend money for paid support or your issue qualifies for free support (like all the Windows Update problems do). Microsoft has demonstrated their lack of interest in the little-guys who supports Microsoft with code and skills for medium-sized businesses. That's a real downer. Yet again. I don't feel like I have any traction with them and if a better product came along I'd jump ship in such a hurry. I spend $500 a month or $6000 a year with another company that I love. They are a huge company and they know me by name. Their leadership contacts me directly for my advice and feedback on everything they do. I love that. This year alone I've helped sell close to $100,000 in Microsoft related products in desktops and servers and Microsoft doesn't even know who I am. That's frustrating. When the right company comes along I'll probably forget who Microsoft is just as easily and the scary part for Microsoft is I'm not the only one... - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
code-frog wrote:
it comes down to follow-up
Aye, that's a good point.
code-frog wrote:
and Microsoft doesn't even know who I am. That's frustrating.
Also a good point. I wonder how many people feel like you, and would be willing to jump the Microsoft ship? The problem as I see it, as you said earler:
code-frog wrote:
With Microsoft I use their stuff because I generally like it and you generally have to in some degree or another if you want to eat well.
is also the incredible breadth and depth of their products. The idea of some company providing similar capabilities is daunting and I don't think would attract most people except techogeeks like me. So, for example, do I use Sun's OpenOffice? Heck no. Do I use #D? Blech. Though I'm meaning to check out leppie's XACC IDE. :) Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
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code-frog wrote:
it comes down to follow-up
Aye, that's a good point.
code-frog wrote:
and Microsoft doesn't even know who I am. That's frustrating.
Also a good point. I wonder how many people feel like you, and would be willing to jump the Microsoft ship? The problem as I see it, as you said earler:
code-frog wrote:
With Microsoft I use their stuff because I generally like it and you generally have to in some degree or another if you want to eat well.
is also the incredible breadth and depth of their products. The idea of some company providing similar capabilities is daunting and I don't think would attract most people except techogeeks like me. So, for example, do I use Sun's OpenOffice? Heck no. Do I use #D? Blech. Though I'm meaning to check out leppie's XACC IDE. :) Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Marc Clifton wrote:
is also the incredible breadth and depth of their products. The idea of some company providing similar capabilities is daunting
I think you are right. Which is why it leaves me and others like me in the frustrated camp because we really cannot change a thing. Microsoft knows it so they forget about us and focus mainly on the corporate masses that will adapt Linux given the chance. I think right now everything Microsoft is doing is to pile-drive Linux and keep MAC/Apple right where they are which is neat gadgets, great marketing but no serious threat. Wonder how much more we'll be forgotten once Microsoft really starts targeting Google based companies. Yeah, just generally feel like I do a lot for Microsoft but they really don't do much for me. I still have a business built largely upon their products though so I guess somewhere in there you just wad it (your frustration) up throw it over your shoulder and finish working on whatever is THE MOST DEMANDING at the time and you resolve to get Microsoft's attention next year ... and maybe not. {GEEEZ!}I launched VS 2005 at least a minute ago and I'm still waiting for it to open. It's in my taskbar though so I'm 1% there.{/GEEEZ!}
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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Yes, I believe so. A question for you though--what do you think about the "give us feedback" concept in general? While the giving side of me thinks it's a great idea, so that the product can be better for us all, the "getting" side of me says, why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation? (And yes, being an MVP is great compensation, but not everyone is, and they pay a lot of money for a product that has problems, and then you're expected to report those problems for free? :~ ) Thoughts? Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
I'm always happy to send error reports and comments, hopefully enough of them to crash their servers. That would be some compensation for the damage their buggy products have done to my systems over the years!:-D "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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Yes, I believe so. A question for you though--what do you think about the "give us feedback" concept in general? While the giving side of me thinks it's a great idea, so that the product can be better for us all, the "getting" side of me says, why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation? (And yes, being an MVP is great compensation, but not everyone is, and they pay a lot of money for a product that has problems, and then you're expected to report those problems for free? :~ ) Thoughts? Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
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Marc Clifton wrote:
why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation?
To me it doesn't come down to compensation it comes down to follow-up. If I had some way to know and track my submitted bugs and I could see when fixes were implemented or warm-bodies would provide work-arounds I'd do it. I never send in the auto-report thing that comes from XP and I don't give feedback on Microsoft products though I pretty much do on all the other products I own. With Microsoft I use their stuff because I generally like it and you generally have to in some degree or another if you want to eat well. My frustration is the total lack of traction you have with Microsoft as one of their customers. I spend several thousand a year on MSDN subscriptions and I get 4 support incidents and message boards and all that jazz. But as a paying customer there's generally a lack of traction unless you want to spend money for paid support or your issue qualifies for free support (like all the Windows Update problems do). Microsoft has demonstrated their lack of interest in the little-guys who supports Microsoft with code and skills for medium-sized businesses. That's a real downer. Yet again. I don't feel like I have any traction with them and if a better product came along I'd jump ship in such a hurry. I spend $500 a month or $6000 a year with another company that I love. They are a huge company and they know me by name. Their leadership contacts me directly for my advice and feedback on everything they do. I love that. This year alone I've helped sell close to $100,000 in Microsoft related products in desktops and servers and Microsoft doesn't even know who I am. That's frustrating. When the right company comes along I'll probably forget who Microsoft is just as easily and the scary part for Microsoft is I'm not the only one... - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
I agree with a lot of what you say here.
code-frog wrote:
Microsoft has demonstrated their lack of interest in the little-guys who supports Microsoft with code and skills for medium-sized businesses.
Well I work for a what I would call a big company and the workers are no more listened to than what you describe. Only if you can get a VP to call on your collective behalf is attention gained.
code-frog wrote:
it comes down to follow-up.
Right on, people want to be listened to and have their opinions valued. "Simplicity is more complicated than you think. But it’s well worth it” (Ron Jeffries)
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code-frog wrote:
it comes down to follow-up
Aye, that's a good point.
code-frog wrote:
and Microsoft doesn't even know who I am. That's frustrating.
Also a good point. I wonder how many people feel like you, and would be willing to jump the Microsoft ship? The problem as I see it, as you said earler:
code-frog wrote:
With Microsoft I use their stuff because I generally like it and you generally have to in some degree or another if you want to eat well.
is also the incredible breadth and depth of their products. The idea of some company providing similar capabilities is daunting and I don't think would attract most people except techogeeks like me. So, for example, do I use Sun's OpenOffice? Heck no. Do I use #D? Blech. Though I'm meaning to check out leppie's XACC IDE. :) Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Marc Clifton wrote:
also the incredible breadth and depth of their products.
I here that but I keep thinking. If you were to buy me a lottery ticket and I won. How much would it really take to take say FreeBSD, put on a graphical shell and then pay for some alternative office suite to be ported to it. Say the Software 602 product (definitly my preference over OpenOffice.) Yes a long way to go but most groups around me use the OS, a brower, a word processor and to a smaller degree, a spreadsheet and a presentation product. Get that working, and then you can expand or just let others build on that base, I just as soon be retired in my ranch and working my forge when I feel like it, watchin the sun rise when I do not. :) "Simplicity is more complicated than you think. But it’s well worth it” (Ron Jeffries)
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If we don't sign up on Microsoft's forums (requires a Passport account, boys and girls), do they even see our complaints about Visual Studio? I'm not inclined to get a "passport" just to identify problems for them that should have been fixed before the product was released. I mean seriously, as liuttle as I've looked at the product, I can imagine finding dozens of other problems. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
I posted a bug report, they acknowledged it, I posted a detailed analysis pin pointing the culprit in .NET 2, Timers. No reponse what so ever, but OTOH I would also be damn embarressed if a 50000 person strong company cannot spot the cause of an issue when some unemployed 'idiot' did. :laugh: xacc.ide-0.1.0.12 released! Now even prettier than the last build :) Download and screenshots
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Yes, I believe so. A question for you though--what do you think about the "give us feedback" concept in general? While the giving side of me thinks it's a great idea, so that the product can be better for us all, the "getting" side of me says, why the hell should I be helping to report bugs without some compensation? (And yes, being an MVP is great compensation, but not everyone is, and they pay a lot of money for a product that has problems, and then you're expected to report those problems for free? :~ ) Thoughts? Marc VS2005 Tips & Tricks -- contributions welcome!
Well, I'm not going to assume there are no bugs in a given product, and I don't mind mentioning them somewhere, but I don't want to use Passport to do it. I would like to think that since this site has over 2.5 MILLION registered users, Microsoft would at least have someone from the VS team checking in on a regular basis. I knew Tom was a 'softie, but I don't know right off hand what division he wroks for. Tom? Are you watching? ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Marc Clifton wrote:
is also the incredible breadth and depth of their products. The idea of some company providing similar capabilities is daunting
I think you are right. Which is why it leaves me and others like me in the frustrated camp because we really cannot change a thing. Microsoft knows it so they forget about us and focus mainly on the corporate masses that will adapt Linux given the chance. I think right now everything Microsoft is doing is to pile-drive Linux and keep MAC/Apple right where they are which is neat gadgets, great marketing but no serious threat. Wonder how much more we'll be forgotten once Microsoft really starts targeting Google based companies. Yeah, just generally feel like I do a lot for Microsoft but they really don't do much for me. I still have a business built largely upon their products though so I guess somewhere in there you just wad it (your frustration) up throw it over your shoulder and finish working on whatever is THE MOST DEMANDING at the time and you resolve to get Microsoft's attention next year ... and maybe not. {GEEEZ!}I launched VS 2005 at least a minute ago and I'm still waiting for it to open. It's in my taskbar though so I'm 1% there.{/GEEEZ!}
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
This is the first release of VS that I won't be buying the Pro version for use at home. They have really hiked prices, which is bad enough, but I think this release was more to satisfy the "Microsoft never release on time" critics than finishing the product. I have it at work, but I am bored already with the performance, the IDE lockups and I don't plan to use it any time soon. In fact, the £400 or so that I would have spent on the upgrade is going towards a Powerbook. if(E_NOINTERFACE == pThat->QueryInterface(IID_IUnknown,(void**)&pUnk)) { // I aint no pUnk bitch! }
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Well, I'm not going to assume there are no bugs in a given product, and I don't mind mentioning them somewhere, but I don't want to use Passport to do it. I would like to think that since this site has over 2.5 MILLION registered users, Microsoft would at least have someone from the VS team checking in on a regular basis. I knew Tom was a 'softie, but I don't know right off hand what division he wroks for. Tom? Are you watching? ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
According to the Windosws Vista Developer Center[^], Tom is "MSDN Program Manager and Content Strategist for Windows Vista, the Windows SDK and Visual C++". Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder
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If we don't sign up on Microsoft's forums (requires a Passport account, boys and girls), do they even see our complaints about Visual Studio? I'm not inclined to get a "passport" just to identify problems for them that should have been fixed before the product was released. I mean seriously, as liuttle as I've looked at the product, I can imagine finding dozens of other problems. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Hey John, get with the program and Microsoft will listen to you. Griping about your fears of being rejected doesn't do you or Microsoft any good. They really do care about customer feedback and just because you feel that they won't listen is no reason not to voice your opinions directly to them. QRZ? de WAØTTN
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Jorgen, that was just funny! Marc it was at your expense but it was funny. I had to laugh. What can I say though, it was classicaly Jorgen...:laugh:
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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Hey John, get with the program and Microsoft will listen to you. Griping about your fears of being rejected doesn't do you or Microsoft any good. They really do care about customer feedback and just because you feel that they won't listen is no reason not to voice your opinions directly to them. QRZ? de WAØTTN
You have a point. BUT . . . (you knew there was a but, didn't you?) If you regularly report to problems to any company (be it Microsoft or your company IT suppliers or the local supermarket or the local road maintenance department) and you never see any resulting action, at some stage you say "stuff it all" and stop reporting.
