More niggly issues with VS2005
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Daniel Turini wrote:
That no one at MS saw those bugs? VS 2005 is a good product, and indeed it makes me more productive, but it's naive to think that MS didn't notice all those bugs. It seems more and more of a software released before the bugs were fixed, because the schedule was late.
Well, if they are like me then they probably weighed up the cost of fixing the bugs against the "cost" of not fixing them. I haven't enough experience with using VS2005 to know how bad the problems are. Maybe they made the wrong call this time or maybe they really thought they had a product that would work well for the vast majority of the user-base. The 'Product Feedback Centre' is one way of registering which problems are affecting us most, so that Microsoft can fix the ones that are "pissing off" most customers. I know that some of the VS team are picking up some of the problems from reading about them on blogs but I don't know how many of the VS team are reading 'The Lounge'. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
They've had 6 people complain about the IDE theming issue, and they said it's "by design" and there will be no "fix". Now, let's talk "pissed off". I don't know who "Jason" is (on the feedback site), but he needs his ass kicked. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Ahhhh, the voting morons are at it again, even when I made an attempt at being tolerant. What's wrong? Have I started too many dveelopment-oriented threads this week? Are you mad because I found these issues and you didn't notice them? Are you annoyed that I'm shinging the harsh light of reality on another half-assed development product made by your favorite monopolistic coporation? Are you incensed because I'm an old-world programmer that can understand and uses pointers while you wallow in a false sense of ability while pretending to be programmers, crapping out "managed" code? Do you think I should be deprecated because I can use the old strcpy without suffering buffer overruns? What a bunch of fuckin' clowns... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 11:31 Sunday 11th December, 2005
I'll help you out and give ya a 5. Thanks for the heads up, I'm not yet using VS2005, but I like hearing any feedback I can get before dishing out money for it. Brian Van Beek Here's my boring blog! [^]
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Ahhhh, the voting morons are at it again, even when I made an attempt at being tolerant. What's wrong? Have I started too many dveelopment-oriented threads this week? Are you mad because I found these issues and you didn't notice them? Are you annoyed that I'm shinging the harsh light of reality on another half-assed development product made by your favorite monopolistic coporation? Are you incensed because I'm an old-world programmer that can understand and uses pointers while you wallow in a false sense of ability while pretending to be programmers, crapping out "managed" code? Do you think I should be deprecated because I can use the old strcpy without suffering buffer overruns? What a bunch of fuckin' clowns... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 11:31 Sunday 11th December, 2005
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
What's wrong?
i don't think it's you. all the threads below this have been abused by stupid votes, too. looks like someone taught their pre-school class how to use CP. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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No, because it requires setting up a Passport account, and I remember the initial Passport rollout. It doesn't give me a warm/fuzzy. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
To set up a passport account does not require any personal information. And, you can use your own email account, outlaw@whatever.com. Finally, you'd no longer be missing out on all the "good" things M$ has for you -- LOL.
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They've had 6 people complain about the IDE theming issue, and they said it's "by design" and there will be no "fix". Now, let's talk "pissed off". I don't know who "Jason" is (on the feedback site), but he needs his ass kicked. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I don't know who "Jason" is (on the feedback site), but he needs his ass kicked.
He's one of the VS team's product managers. (Whatever a product manager is) The theming issue doesn't really bother me. It's kinda what I've come to expect of software running on Windows XP. I don't know what it does on Win2k though, from what I've read VS2005 on Win2k should be using the standard interface. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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Ahhhh, the voting morons are at it again, even when I made an attempt at being tolerant. What's wrong? Have I started too many dveelopment-oriented threads this week? Are you mad because I found these issues and you didn't notice them? Are you annoyed that I'm shinging the harsh light of reality on another half-assed development product made by your favorite monopolistic coporation? Are you incensed because I'm an old-world programmer that can understand and uses pointers while you wallow in a false sense of ability while pretending to be programmers, crapping out "managed" code? Do you think I should be deprecated because I can use the old strcpy without suffering buffer overruns? What a bunch of fuckin' clowns... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 11:31 Sunday 11th December, 2005
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
What a bunch of fuckin' clowns...
We seem to be suffering from a bit of hit and run voting again. Perhaps somebody had been told to do their own homework in one of the other forums and so is having a childish spat... I'm going to make a suggestion to Chris that we can have an option to not show the voting in forums. I have no real interest in what other people vote for my posts or what they vote other peoples either. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I don't know who "Jason" is (on the feedback site), but he needs his ass kicked.
He's one of the VS team's product managers. (Whatever a product manager is) The theming issue doesn't really bother me. It's kinda what I've come to expect of software running on Windows XP. I don't know what it does on Win2k though, from what I've read VS2005 on Win2k should be using the standard interface. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
from what I've read VS2005 on Win2k should be using the standard interface Well, it doesn't. :/ I'd be okay with it if it at least used the right font settings. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 13:26 Sunday 11th December, 2005
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I'll probably be adding to this list over the course of the day (I also want to point out that I'm not just being argumentative or overly critical, I just want the product to be what I need it to be): 1) In the Solution Explorer tab of the workspace window, "Source Files" really should be the first item in the tree (like it was in VS6). It makes more sense because I'm in the source files much more than the rest. 2) The Property Manager tab should be moved into the Solution Manager tree as the last tree item. 3) When you un-pin the workspace window, and then hover the mouse over the side-tabs, the workspace window shows up, but it doesn't account for the Error List window being displayed, and covers it up. 4) I turned off window animations, but there's still a speed penalty (in the form of a 1-2 second delay) involved in displaying un-pinned windows. It's almost like the IDE is still running through the code that animates the window, but just now displaying the visual changes until the window being rolled out says "okay, I'm finished rolling out". For completeness, I'll also mention that the side tabs on BOTH sides of the screen do this. The delay is also there when you move the mouse off the window that was rolled out. 5) The XP look and the non-adherance to user-specified system-wide window properties is still pissing me off. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
The impression I get with VS 2005 (and also with VS 2003) is that it has been designed first and foremost to accomodate C# and VB .NET. C++ development has been an afterthought. I cannot myself vouch for this, since so far I've only done C# and VB in the new IDEs, not C++ (apart from the odd toy program). Whenever I 've had to do any real C++ since .NET has been out it's always been under VC 6. When I first heard back in about 1999 that MS was moving to a common "VB-style" IDE for all the languages I knew they'd have a tough time accommodating C++. Having said this it doesn't seem like it should have been an impossible task. It seems to be more down to the fact that they'd like everyone to use .NET primarily and C++ only when nothing else will do. So less attention has been paid to C++ developers. Kevin
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Ahhhh, the voting morons are at it again, even when I made an attempt at being tolerant. What's wrong? Have I started too many dveelopment-oriented threads this week? Are you mad because I found these issues and you didn't notice them? Are you annoyed that I'm shinging the harsh light of reality on another half-assed development product made by your favorite monopolistic coporation? Are you incensed because I'm an old-world programmer that can understand and uses pointers while you wallow in a false sense of ability while pretending to be programmers, crapping out "managed" code? Do you think I should be deprecated because I can use the old strcpy without suffering buffer overruns? What a bunch of fuckin' clowns... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 11:31 Sunday 11th December, 2005
In all fairness these issues you are having have been well talked about all over the web. Marc even setup a blog for it. Plus there is a forum here on CP for it. And you are one of the first to complain how fast the Lounge scrolls by. Maybe make one thread and stick to it. I didn't vote you down but I am now just skipping over your threads as they are... tedious? Nothing personal :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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To set up a passport account does not require any personal information. And, you can use your own email account, outlaw@whatever.com. Finally, you'd no longer be missing out on all the "good" things M$ has for you -- LOL.
We should not do Microsoft's programmers jobs for them. The company allowed this product to be released with some 3000+ bugs (that the users had posted for them) and they decided that it was more important to meet their own artificial deadline than maybe get it right. They got our "Free" quality control and time during the beta and RC. They've been doing this crap to us for the past 5 years or so. I don't believe blindly following one company just to maintain one standard is the key. Are some people actually willing to forgive a company that continues to pack on the features (and bugs) instead of fixes some of the older ones. Intellisense, has been busted for, hmm, 7 or more years and numerous service packs and VS versions. "Just delete the .ncb file".....That's not a solution. That gets so frickin' old and wastes so much frickin' time. I've been watching my class disappear randomly when I decide to create a new member function. I have to shut the app down, delete the .ncb file to get my frickin' class back also. Pathetic! Don't do that company any more favors. Let them suffer the same fate as GM is poised to suffer. I kept buying their cars and the creeks and rattles continued on ever car I've bought over the last 15 years. I'm sick of blindly forgiving these lazy companies. F'em.
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In all fairness these issues you are having have been well talked about all over the web. Marc even setup a blog for it. Plus there is a forum here on CP for it. And you are one of the first to complain how fast the Lounge scrolls by. Maybe make one thread and stick to it. I didn't vote you down but I am now just skipping over your threads as they are... tedious? Nothing personal :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Whats tedious are people who just blindly accept that everyone should remain calm while Microsoft ruins our programming careers. I think the people who make it obvious that Visual Studio 2005 is less than satisfactory, help the rest of the public make that fateful decision of whether to fork over the cash for another half baked tool. I've read some of Marc's blog but he's not the only voice in our industry. Let him speak his two cents. I thoroughly enjoy the feedback, good and bad, people have for this product. It points me too all the issues and cool features. My code is slowly becoming deprecated but it is so non-portable because it utilized some of Microsoft's previous "time saving" technologies. I've backed myself in a corner cause I have two choices now, buy something that doesn't work and will force me to spend time on workarounds instead of churning out code, or I can make the effort to port my code. Either, way does not sound attractive. Thanks Microsoft....Let the man rant. They deserve the bad press!
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Whats tedious are people who just blindly accept that everyone should remain calm while Microsoft ruins our programming careers. I think the people who make it obvious that Visual Studio 2005 is less than satisfactory, help the rest of the public make that fateful decision of whether to fork over the cash for another half baked tool. I've read some of Marc's blog but he's not the only voice in our industry. Let him speak his two cents. I thoroughly enjoy the feedback, good and bad, people have for this product. It points me too all the issues and cool features. My code is slowly becoming deprecated but it is so non-portable because it utilized some of Microsoft's previous "time saving" technologies. I've backed myself in a corner cause I have two choices now, buy something that doesn't work and will force me to spend time on workarounds instead of churning out code, or I can make the effort to port my code. Either, way does not sound attractive. Thanks Microsoft....Let the man rant. They deserve the bad press!
I agree with your comments about VS2005 and M$ and that M$ deserves the bad press. Your comment about being non-portable applies to other platforms and companies as well. Unless you're writing command-line style utilities, which is possible to do with Windows too and be x-platform. Just try running a KDE/Linus based program on Windows. Can't do it. You can port the code to windows, just like you can port a windows program to other platforms by porting those non-portable bits. However, use of libraries like wxWidgets makes it easier to have x-platform programs and products.
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Whats tedious are people who just blindly accept that everyone should remain calm while Microsoft ruins our programming careers. I think the people who make it obvious that Visual Studio 2005 is less than satisfactory, help the rest of the public make that fateful decision of whether to fork over the cash for another half baked tool. I've read some of Marc's blog but he's not the only voice in our industry. Let him speak his two cents. I thoroughly enjoy the feedback, good and bad, people have for this product. It points me too all the issues and cool features. My code is slowly becoming deprecated but it is so non-portable because it utilized some of Microsoft's previous "time saving" technologies. I've backed myself in a corner cause I have two choices now, buy something that doesn't work and will force me to spend time on workarounds instead of churning out code, or I can make the effort to port my code. Either, way does not sound attractive. Thanks Microsoft....Let the man rant. They deserve the bad press!
He asked, I gave my opinion, I find his multiple posts tedious. And there is a ton of bad press around VS2005 on the web. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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In all fairness these issues you are having have been well talked about all over the web. Marc even setup a blog for it. Plus there is a forum here on CP for it. And you are one of the first to complain how fast the Lounge scrolls by. Maybe make one thread and stick to it. I didn't vote you down but I am now just skipping over your threads as they are... tedious? Nothing personal :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
I don't think it's tedious at all. This is the latest and (and I use the term very loosely) greatest devtool form MS, and it is IMHO, much less of a viable product than VC6 was when it was first released. Further, Microsoft's apparent disregard for performance and usability isses is pathetic. Making "one thread" doesn't work at CP because the forum software doesn't allow active threads to stay at the top of the list. I already have to scroll four or five pages just to get to the posts that I made yesterday. THAT is tedious. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I agree with your comments about VS2005 and M$ and that M$ deserves the bad press. Your comment about being non-portable applies to other platforms and companies as well. Unless you're writing command-line style utilities, which is possible to do with Windows too and be x-platform. Just try running a KDE/Linus based program on Windows. Can't do it. You can port the code to windows, just like you can port a windows program to other platforms by porting those non-portable bits. However, use of libraries like wxWidgets makes it easier to have x-platform programs and products.
Don't get me wrong, I am not eager to even attempt that move. It's not much of an option since my entire (non-academic) programming life has been centered around Microsoft technologies. I'm stuck in between no good solutions at this point. I've embraced VC++ 6.0 until they totally deprecate me or finally give us VC++ 6.1 which is really all we ever wanted. I wish they would give us that no-frills text editor, with intellisense and the good ol' wizard of course, with those damn .ncb bugs fixed and updated MFC classes. I've successfully mixed GDI/GDI+ so I think I can hold out a few more years but it's going to be rough. I'm not too fond of Borland technologies but really I haven't touched them since 1994 ish. We are a Novell/Microsoft shop at work so it is feasible to move to Linux, but that would put us back years trying to relearn everything. I just wish Microsoft would slow the hell down, and quit with all the dizzying new features and get it right the first time.
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He asked, I gave my opinion, I find his multiple posts tedious. And there is a ton of bad press around VS2005 on the web. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
I'm not trying to stir up bad press. In fact, I'm actively using the program. I was specifially asked to post my observations by people that are understandably reluctant to buy dev tools from MS on the first go-round. You're not omnipotent, Paul. Just because you're (apparently) willing to accept and ignore the problems in 2005 doesn't mean the rest of us have to be dragged along by the nose as well. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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The impression I get with VS 2005 (and also with VS 2003) is that it has been designed first and foremost to accomodate C# and VB .NET. C++ development has been an afterthought. I cannot myself vouch for this, since so far I've only done C# and VB in the new IDEs, not C++ (apart from the odd toy program). Whenever I 've had to do any real C++ since .NET has been out it's always been under VC 6. When I first heard back in about 1999 that MS was moving to a common "VB-style" IDE for all the languages I knew they'd have a tough time accommodating C++. Having said this it doesn't seem like it should have been an impossible task. It seems to be more down to the fact that they'd like everyone to use .NET primarily and C++ only when nothing else will do. So less attention has been paid to C++ developers. Kevin
But none of the complaints in this thread have been about a particular language. I'm talking about usability and performance of the IDE here. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 13:27 Sunday 11th December, 2005
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I'm not trying to stir up bad press. In fact, I'm actively using the program. I was specifially asked to post my observations by people that are understandably reluctant to buy dev tools from MS on the first go-round. You're not omnipotent, Paul. Just because you're (apparently) willing to accept and ignore the problems in 2005 doesn't mean the rest of us have to be dragged along by the nose as well. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Hey, back off there mate, I didn't make it personal. I just said a "Visual Studo 2005 problems" search on virtually anything will bring up every problem you have had plus a dozen more. I know the app has problems, I have to use it everyday too. I just find it tedious logging into CP and finding the Lounge full of generic "VS2005 problems" posts. My opinion right. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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We should not do Microsoft's programmers jobs for them. The company allowed this product to be released with some 3000+ bugs (that the users had posted for them) and they decided that it was more important to meet their own artificial deadline than maybe get it right. They got our "Free" quality control and time during the beta and RC. They've been doing this crap to us for the past 5 years or so. I don't believe blindly following one company just to maintain one standard is the key. Are some people actually willing to forgive a company that continues to pack on the features (and bugs) instead of fixes some of the older ones. Intellisense, has been busted for, hmm, 7 or more years and numerous service packs and VS versions. "Just delete the .ncb file".....That's not a solution. That gets so frickin' old and wastes so much frickin' time. I've been watching my class disappear randomly when I decide to create a new member function. I have to shut the app down, delete the .ncb file to get my frickin' class back also. Pathetic! Don't do that company any more favors. Let them suffer the same fate as GM is poised to suffer. I kept buying their cars and the creeks and rattles continued on ever car I've bought over the last 15 years. I'm sick of blindly forgiving these lazy companies. F'em.
Intellisense (in VS2005): Actually thats one of the parts of the IDE that has worked flawlessly so far. Help/MSDN in 2005: So far it seems fairly complete. I haven't had any problems resolving compiling issues so far. Bugs: I'm not saying I expected a bug-free product, and I'm even willing to report deficiencies when I find them. However, the complete dismissal on the part of the VS Dev Team regarding perfomance/usability issues truly pisses me off. ------------ I'm trying to avoid comparing VS2005 directly with VC6 unless I think someone needs a familiar reference. I mainly write unmanaged C++/MFC code, so I skipped VS2003. However, I at least wanted to start using the newest version of MFC because I see some value in using the latest version of that library. Unfortunately, MS is (despite their weak-ass claims to the contrary) actively trying to kill MFC and un-managed coding, so it looks like we're gonna get screwed no matter how much we bitch and moan. I can hear the whispers from future co-workers now... "Stand back, let him pass, and avert your eyes - he uses *gasp* pointers!" ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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In all fairness these issues you are having have been well talked about all over the web. Marc even setup a blog for it. Plus there is a forum here on CP for it. And you are one of the first to complain how fast the Lounge scrolls by. Maybe make one thread and stick to it. I didn't vote you down but I am now just skipping over your threads as they are... tedious? Nothing personal :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Paul Watson wrote:
Maybe make one thread and stick to it.
No way. When the times comes and we have to decide whether to upgrade or not, i want to be able to point to this forum and say "look, there are roughly 3 threads per day ripping on VS2005 - is this *really* the sort of product we want to be putting our faith and money in?" Let's face it - this isn't VS2001, where changes in scope required making a huge change of direction in both the UI and the underlying architecture. Much as MS might want to think they are targetting huge new markets with this release, it's essentially the same product as the last two; most of the problems have been known since the betas, and still it was pushed out the door. This release should have been the most stable and complete of the last three, utilizing all the feedback they've been getting for the past five years... instead, it's a trainwreck. There is no amount of bad feedback too great in this sad situation.
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