More niggly issues with VS2005
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
What a bunch of fuckin' clowns...
We seem to be suffering from a bit of hit and run voting again. Perhaps somebody had been told to do their own homework in one of the other forums and so is having a childish spat... I'm going to make a suggestion to Chris that we can have an option to not show the voting in forums. I have no real interest in what other people vote for my posts or what they vote other peoples either. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote:
I have no real interest in what other people vote for my posts or what they vote other peoples either.
Exactly! All the posts in this thread are just opinions, so why should I care what your opinion is of someone else's opinion?
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Paul Watson wrote:
Maybe make one thread and stick to it.
No way. When the times comes and we have to decide whether to upgrade or not, i want to be able to point to this forum and say "look, there are roughly 3 threads per day ripping on VS2005 - is this *really* the sort of product we want to be putting our faith and money in?" Let's face it - this isn't VS2001, where changes in scope required making a huge change of direction in both the UI and the underlying architecture. Much as MS might want to think they are targetting huge new markets with this release, it's essentially the same product as the last two; most of the problems have been known since the betas, and still it was pushed out the door. This release should have been the most stable and complete of the last three, utilizing all the feedback they've been getting for the past five years... instead, it's a trainwreck. There is no amount of bad feedback too great in this sad situation.
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Shog9 wrote:
No way. When the times comes and we have to decide whether to upgrade or not, i want to be able to point to this forum and say "look, there are roughly 3 threads per day ripping on VS2005 - is this *really* the sort of product we want to be putting our faith and money in?"
Well all these posts have certainly put me off buying VS2005 in the short-term... okay, being short of cash might have something to do with it too. Personally, I feel Microsoft have fumbled this release by trying to get it out this year. They should have just sucked it up and renamed the product VS 2006 and released it in March. They might have taken a bit of stick over it but at least they'd have kept their core developer customers a little happier. In the future they should keep the big development tools releases to coincide with the release of a major OS upgrade. They should take a lesson out of their own SCRUM methodologies and release smaller updates of their tools every three months or so. Of course, I'm just a small business man and not a multi-billionaire so what do I know. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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I don't think it's tedious at all. This is the latest and (and I use the term very loosely) greatest devtool form MS, and it is IMHO, much less of a viable product than VC6 was when it was first released. Further, Microsoft's apparent disregard for performance and usability isses is pathetic. Making "one thread" doesn't work at CP because the forum software doesn't allow active threads to stay at the top of the list. I already have to scroll four or five pages just to get to the posts that I made yesterday. THAT is tedious. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Making "one thread" doesn't work at CP
I totally agree. Since this topic is obviously of general interest (judging by the number of replies to John), I think there should be a "VS 2005 Issues" forum - for both complaints and kudos. I'm suggesting this not because I want to get this topic out of the Lounge, but because I'd like to be able to reference these posts at a future time, without having to wade through thousands of search hits.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Intellisense (in VS2005): Actually thats one of the parts of the IDE that has worked flawlessly so far.
That was actually the first bug I came across when I tried out Beta 2. Since it was all too familiar, I made the assumption that it would not be fixed in the final release. I got frustrated with the Beta 2 enough, that I quit wasting my own time on it, and relied on those brave souls who carried on. If it's fixed, then that's really good news and frankly unexpected with the attitudes of the feedback centers reps in the 6 months leading up to the final release. One thing caught my attention though, you made a comment that you use the "Solution Explorer" more than the other tabs. I usually use the "Class View" and create member functions and sometimes my member variables and this is where intellisense gets/got goofy on me. Has anybody witnessed the old .ncb problems in the final release when using the "Class View" to create members? If this is fixed, then I stand corrected on that issue.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
However, I at least wanted to start using the newest version of MFC because I see some value in using the latest version of that library.
I would likely not use the managed stuff as most, if not all of my code utilizes MFC and I have to admit, the workarounds to get new functionality to work with MFC is eating away at precious time. Let us know how the experience with MFC goes in VC++ 2005. BTW, thanks for your posts.
Let us know how the experience with MFC goes in VC++ 2005. So far, it's been fairly painless. The only thing I've had to do was add a #include to STDAFX.H to use the CListView class. If you use any of the C runtime functions (like strcpy, itoa, etc) you should expect some "deprecated code" warnings. Since you're using MFC, I have no doubt that you're also calling many Win32 API functions (or macros) directly - be aware that some parameter types have changed. I can't compare the release version to the beta because I didn't use the beta (mostly because of all the complaints I saw about it. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I'll probably be adding to this list over the course of the day (I also want to point out that I'm not just being argumentative or overly critical, I just want the product to be what I need it to be): 1) In the Solution Explorer tab of the workspace window, "Source Files" really should be the first item in the tree (like it was in VS6). It makes more sense because I'm in the source files much more than the rest. 2) The Property Manager tab should be moved into the Solution Manager tree as the last tree item. 3) When you un-pin the workspace window, and then hover the mouse over the side-tabs, the workspace window shows up, but it doesn't account for the Error List window being displayed, and covers it up. 4) I turned off window animations, but there's still a speed penalty (in the form of a 1-2 second delay) involved in displaying un-pinned windows. It's almost like the IDE is still running through the code that animates the window, but just now displaying the visual changes until the window being rolled out says "okay, I'm finished rolling out". For completeness, I'll also mention that the side tabs on BOTH sides of the screen do this. The delay is also there when you move the mouse off the window that was rolled out. 5) The XP look and the non-adherance to user-specified system-wide window properties is still pissing me off. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
And here I am holding the pack of Team Suit CDs I managed to aquire for a test run. I insert CD1 in my drive, start the install, wait for 10 mins for it to initialise (P4 3.2Ghz, 768Ram), select components and the install begins... Really it will be quicker if I typed down those files manually using binary than for installer to copy them... And install reaches the first milestone called "Insert next CD". And I do it. And install still ask me to insert damned CD2. But it is already there. But install cannot see it. Cancel. And rollback starts...and ends in another 20 mins... Goodbye VS2005. It was nice knowing ya. -------------------------------- Human stupidity is infinite.
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But none of the complaints in this thread have been about a particular language. I'm talking about usability and performance of the IDE here. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 13:27 Sunday 11th December, 2005
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I'm talking about usability and performance of the IDE here.
And I for one and glad you are posting. I like to make informed decisions when I lay out cash for a product, and your posts here are making me informed.
"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" - mYkel - 21 Jun '04 "There's not enough blatant self-congratulatory backslapping in the world today..." - HumblePie - 21 Jun '05 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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I agree MS and users of MS software need to be made aware but the posts I have seen here lately have not added anything new. Plus the posts are just lists of problems, not a discussion of them or the general problem. Anyway. I am watching the oil depot fires in England on telly. Loads more interesting :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
But you're still intrigued enough by the tedium to constantly check this thread and make responses. :) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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But you're still intrigued enough by the tedium to constantly check this thread and make responses. :) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Because it keeps popping into my inbox. I haven't said anything about the actual problems you had. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Daniel Turini wrote:
It seems to me that, when you're talking about the "cost" of fixing bugs, are you talking about the cost for *you*, and when you're talking about the "cost" of not fixing bugs, you're talking about the cost for your customers, am I right?
Yes. It's always about balancing the cost of fixing the bug against how much not fixing it will cause your customer pain.
Daniel Turini wrote:
Since we're talking about a "cost" here, we're talking about US$, right? I can understand rough predictions of the cost of bug fixing, but how can you predict the cost of a bug being left on your code?
I think Joel explains it best[^] Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Joel sometimes writes good articles. But sometimes, he's shallow. As in this case. Do you know where this reasoning leads to? Ford Pinto[^]. To quote the article: "Ford waited eight years because its internal "cost-benefit analysis," which places a dollar value on human life, said it wasn't profitable to make the changes sooner." If people knew that Ford Pinto had a design problem that could cause it to explode, and that cost analysis decided that it was cheaper let people die on fire, do you think that so many people would buy it? IMHO, if you decide not to fix bugs you know before you release your software, you should clearly tell your customers which bugs are known. Then, see if your customers agree with this cost analysis. I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
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Just create a simple dialog. Put an "OK" button on it, and set the AcceptButton property to this button. Run the application. Show this Form from another one with "ShowDialog". Click "OK" and it won't close, because the DialogResult property wasn't properly set on the button. On VS 2003, this works. It took me 5 minutes to find this bug. Probably, someone would take another 5 minutes to fix it. I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
As far as I know, setting the
CancelButtonproperty of a form sets theDialogResultfor that button toCancel. But setting theAcceptButtonproperty doesn't set theDialogResulttoOKbecause most of the time you don't always automatically close the dialog, but instead perform some validations, and probably won't close the dialog if they fail. -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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Michael P Butler wrote:
Well, if they are like me then they probably weighed up the cost of fixing the bugs against the "cost" of not fixing them.
This is a sentence I see repeated again and again. Ok, so how do you measure the "cost" of fixing a bug? And how do you measure the "cost" of *not* fixing a bug? It seems to me that, when you're talking about the "cost" of fixing bugs, are you talking about the cost for *you*, and when you're talking about the "cost" of not fixing bugs, you're talking about the cost for your customers, am I right? Since we're talking about a "cost" here, we're talking about US$, right? I can understand rough predictions of the cost of bug fixing, but how can you predict the cost of a bug being left on your code? I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
Here's another very good article on this subject: My Life as Code Economist[^] by Eric Sink, from SourceGear. -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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I'll probably be adding to this list over the course of the day (I also want to point out that I'm not just being argumentative or overly critical, I just want the product to be what I need it to be): 1) In the Solution Explorer tab of the workspace window, "Source Files" really should be the first item in the tree (like it was in VS6). It makes more sense because I'm in the source files much more than the rest. 2) The Property Manager tab should be moved into the Solution Manager tree as the last tree item. 3) When you un-pin the workspace window, and then hover the mouse over the side-tabs, the workspace window shows up, but it doesn't account for the Error List window being displayed, and covers it up. 4) I turned off window animations, but there's still a speed penalty (in the form of a 1-2 second delay) involved in displaying un-pinned windows. It's almost like the IDE is still running through the code that animates the window, but just now displaying the visual changes until the window being rolled out says "okay, I'm finished rolling out". For completeness, I'll also mention that the side tabs on BOTH sides of the screen do this. The delay is also there when you move the mouse off the window that was rolled out. 5) The XP look and the non-adherance to user-specified system-wide window properties is still pissing me off. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
This has to be one of the longest threads I've seen on CP. If no pretty close. I wonder w hat the thread count is on the longest conversation on CP is. Thanks, John
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Joel sometimes writes good articles. But sometimes, he's shallow. As in this case. Do you know where this reasoning leads to? Ford Pinto[^]. To quote the article: "Ford waited eight years because its internal "cost-benefit analysis," which places a dollar value on human life, said it wasn't profitable to make the changes sooner." If people knew that Ford Pinto had a design problem that could cause it to explode, and that cost analysis decided that it was cheaper let people die on fire, do you think that so many people would buy it? IMHO, if you decide not to fix bugs you know before you release your software, you should clearly tell your customers which bugs are known. Then, see if your customers agree with this cost analysis. I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
Daniel Turini wrote:
Joel sometimes writes good articles. But sometimes, he's shallow. As in this case. Do you know where this reasoning leads to? ... Then, see if your customers agree with this cost analysis.
I'm sorry, but I think Joel was right on this one. Your example looks great, but it's extreme and it doesn't apply here. The cost-benefit analysis should be done by any supplier, and his article explains how he did it in his case. The only trouble is that it has to be done properly. Ford obviously didn't. Because, no matter what decision do you reach after the analysis, some people will be less than thrilled. you just have to make sure you make unhappy fewer people and/or less influential one. I'm not very excited when I get the wrong end of such a decision myself, but that is not because the idea of the cost-benefit is faulty. Maybe someone applied it badly or I'm just too small a fry. OGR
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Whats tedious are people who just blindly accept that everyone should remain calm while Microsoft ruins our programming careers. I think the people who make it obvious that Visual Studio 2005 is less than satisfactory, help the rest of the public make that fateful decision of whether to fork over the cash for another half baked tool. I've read some of Marc's blog but he's not the only voice in our industry. Let him speak his two cents. I thoroughly enjoy the feedback, good and bad, people have for this product. It points me too all the issues and cool features. My code is slowly becoming deprecated but it is so non-portable because it utilized some of Microsoft's previous "time saving" technologies. I've backed myself in a corner cause I have two choices now, buy something that doesn't work and will force me to spend time on workarounds instead of churning out code, or I can make the effort to port my code. Either, way does not sound attractive. Thanks Microsoft....Let the man rant. They deserve the bad press!
bob16972 wrote:
Whats tedious are people who just blindly accept that everyone should remain calm while Microsoft ruins our programming careers.
MS ruining my/your career? You must be joking! The worse their products are, the harder they are to use. The easier it is to make the difference between a good developer and an also-run. It is crappy products that make you an expert, you don't get any bonus points for being able to use the remote of your TV set. Apart from that, I fully agree with you. OGR
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bob16972 wrote:
Whats tedious are people who just blindly accept that everyone should remain calm while Microsoft ruins our programming careers.
MS ruining my/your career? You must be joking! The worse their products are, the harder they are to use. The easier it is to make the difference between a good developer and an also-run. It is crappy products that make you an expert, you don't get any bonus points for being able to use the remote of your TV set. Apart from that, I fully agree with you. OGR
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This has to be one of the longest threads I've seen on CP. If no pretty close. I wonder w hat the thread count is on the longest conversation on CP is. Thanks, John
This one probably is around 50-60 posts. I remember seeing one at 116 posts. -- LuisR
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!
The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005
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I'll probably be adding to this list over the course of the day (I also want to point out that I'm not just being argumentative or overly critical, I just want the product to be what I need it to be): 1) In the Solution Explorer tab of the workspace window, "Source Files" really should be the first item in the tree (like it was in VS6). It makes more sense because I'm in the source files much more than the rest. 2) The Property Manager tab should be moved into the Solution Manager tree as the last tree item. 3) When you un-pin the workspace window, and then hover the mouse over the side-tabs, the workspace window shows up, but it doesn't account for the Error List window being displayed, and covers it up. 4) I turned off window animations, but there's still a speed penalty (in the form of a 1-2 second delay) involved in displaying un-pinned windows. It's almost like the IDE is still running through the code that animates the window, but just now displaying the visual changes until the window being rolled out says "okay, I'm finished rolling out". For completeness, I'll also mention that the side tabs on BOTH sides of the screen do this. The delay is also there when you move the mouse off the window that was rolled out. 5) The XP look and the non-adherance to user-specified system-wide window properties is still pissing me off. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
"Source Files" really should be the first item in the tree
..ideally this would be a configurable option (a lot of people start off with the designer. BTW you should be able to use shortcut key F7 to open source straight away.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
- The Property Manager tab should be moved into the Solution Manager tree as the last tree item.
Not sure I understand. If you're changing properties for an item in the sol/exp. you need to keep that item selected while you edit it's properties.
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No offense, but I'm not sure I get what your saying. I reread your post three times and the thread and I guess I'm missing something here. Please advise...
Translation: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." My opionion: Rubbish. Translation: "Rubbish." Being forced to use crappy tools to do your job doesn't make you a better programmer. It makes you a victim of circumstances. Translation: "Rubbish." ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
"Source Files" really should be the first item in the tree
..ideally this would be a configurable option (a lot of people start off with the designer. BTW you should be able to use shortcut key F7 to open source straight away.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
- The Property Manager tab should be moved into the Solution Manager tree as the last tree item.
Not sure I understand. If you're changing properties for an item in the sol/exp. you need to keep that item selected while you edit it's properties.
Not sure I understand. If you're changing properties for an item in the sol/exp. you need to keep that item selected while you edit it's properties. The property manager tab is for the solution, not for individual files. It should be placed where it makes more sense. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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This has to be one of the longest threads I've seen on CP. If no pretty close. I wonder w hat the thread count is on the longest conversation on CP is. Thanks, John
I've seen threads with more than 200 posts. Don't worry, I'll be starting another thread VS2005 shortly. :) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001