More niggly issues with VS2005
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I agree with your comments about VS2005 and M$ and that M$ deserves the bad press. Your comment about being non-portable applies to other platforms and companies as well. Unless you're writing command-line style utilities, which is possible to do with Windows too and be x-platform. Just try running a KDE/Linus based program on Windows. Can't do it. You can port the code to windows, just like you can port a windows program to other platforms by porting those non-portable bits. However, use of libraries like wxWidgets makes it easier to have x-platform programs and products.
Don't get me wrong, I am not eager to even attempt that move. It's not much of an option since my entire (non-academic) programming life has been centered around Microsoft technologies. I'm stuck in between no good solutions at this point. I've embraced VC++ 6.0 until they totally deprecate me or finally give us VC++ 6.1 which is really all we ever wanted. I wish they would give us that no-frills text editor, with intellisense and the good ol' wizard of course, with those damn .ncb bugs fixed and updated MFC classes. I've successfully mixed GDI/GDI+ so I think I can hold out a few more years but it's going to be rough. I'm not too fond of Borland technologies but really I haven't touched them since 1994 ish. We are a Novell/Microsoft shop at work so it is feasible to move to Linux, but that would put us back years trying to relearn everything. I just wish Microsoft would slow the hell down, and quit with all the dizzying new features and get it right the first time.
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He asked, I gave my opinion, I find his multiple posts tedious. And there is a ton of bad press around VS2005 on the web. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
I'm not trying to stir up bad press. In fact, I'm actively using the program. I was specifially asked to post my observations by people that are understandably reluctant to buy dev tools from MS on the first go-round. You're not omnipotent, Paul. Just because you're (apparently) willing to accept and ignore the problems in 2005 doesn't mean the rest of us have to be dragged along by the nose as well. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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The impression I get with VS 2005 (and also with VS 2003) is that it has been designed first and foremost to accomodate C# and VB .NET. C++ development has been an afterthought. I cannot myself vouch for this, since so far I've only done C# and VB in the new IDEs, not C++ (apart from the odd toy program). Whenever I 've had to do any real C++ since .NET has been out it's always been under VC 6. When I first heard back in about 1999 that MS was moving to a common "VB-style" IDE for all the languages I knew they'd have a tough time accommodating C++. Having said this it doesn't seem like it should have been an impossible task. It seems to be more down to the fact that they'd like everyone to use .NET primarily and C++ only when nothing else will do. So less attention has been paid to C++ developers. Kevin
But none of the complaints in this thread have been about a particular language. I'm talking about usability and performance of the IDE here. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 13:27 Sunday 11th December, 2005
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I'm not trying to stir up bad press. In fact, I'm actively using the program. I was specifially asked to post my observations by people that are understandably reluctant to buy dev tools from MS on the first go-round. You're not omnipotent, Paul. Just because you're (apparently) willing to accept and ignore the problems in 2005 doesn't mean the rest of us have to be dragged along by the nose as well. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Hey, back off there mate, I didn't make it personal. I just said a "Visual Studo 2005 problems" search on virtually anything will bring up every problem you have had plus a dozen more. I know the app has problems, I have to use it everyday too. I just find it tedious logging into CP and finding the Lounge full of generic "VS2005 problems" posts. My opinion right. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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We should not do Microsoft's programmers jobs for them. The company allowed this product to be released with some 3000+ bugs (that the users had posted for them) and they decided that it was more important to meet their own artificial deadline than maybe get it right. They got our "Free" quality control and time during the beta and RC. They've been doing this crap to us for the past 5 years or so. I don't believe blindly following one company just to maintain one standard is the key. Are some people actually willing to forgive a company that continues to pack on the features (and bugs) instead of fixes some of the older ones. Intellisense, has been busted for, hmm, 7 or more years and numerous service packs and VS versions. "Just delete the .ncb file".....That's not a solution. That gets so frickin' old and wastes so much frickin' time. I've been watching my class disappear randomly when I decide to create a new member function. I have to shut the app down, delete the .ncb file to get my frickin' class back also. Pathetic! Don't do that company any more favors. Let them suffer the same fate as GM is poised to suffer. I kept buying their cars and the creeks and rattles continued on ever car I've bought over the last 15 years. I'm sick of blindly forgiving these lazy companies. F'em.
Intellisense (in VS2005): Actually thats one of the parts of the IDE that has worked flawlessly so far. Help/MSDN in 2005: So far it seems fairly complete. I haven't had any problems resolving compiling issues so far. Bugs: I'm not saying I expected a bug-free product, and I'm even willing to report deficiencies when I find them. However, the complete dismissal on the part of the VS Dev Team regarding perfomance/usability issues truly pisses me off. ------------ I'm trying to avoid comparing VS2005 directly with VC6 unless I think someone needs a familiar reference. I mainly write unmanaged C++/MFC code, so I skipped VS2003. However, I at least wanted to start using the newest version of MFC because I see some value in using the latest version of that library. Unfortunately, MS is (despite their weak-ass claims to the contrary) actively trying to kill MFC and un-managed coding, so it looks like we're gonna get screwed no matter how much we bitch and moan. I can hear the whispers from future co-workers now... "Stand back, let him pass, and avert your eyes - he uses *gasp* pointers!" ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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In all fairness these issues you are having have been well talked about all over the web. Marc even setup a blog for it. Plus there is a forum here on CP for it. And you are one of the first to complain how fast the Lounge scrolls by. Maybe make one thread and stick to it. I didn't vote you down but I am now just skipping over your threads as they are... tedious? Nothing personal :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Paul Watson wrote:
Maybe make one thread and stick to it.
No way. When the times comes and we have to decide whether to upgrade or not, i want to be able to point to this forum and say "look, there are roughly 3 threads per day ripping on VS2005 - is this *really* the sort of product we want to be putting our faith and money in?" Let's face it - this isn't VS2001, where changes in scope required making a huge change of direction in both the UI and the underlying architecture. Much as MS might want to think they are targetting huge new markets with this release, it's essentially the same product as the last two; most of the problems have been known since the betas, and still it was pushed out the door. This release should have been the most stable and complete of the last three, utilizing all the feedback they've been getting for the past five years... instead, it's a trainwreck. There is no amount of bad feedback too great in this sad situation.
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Perhpas this isn't actually a bug. It could be a (strange) designed behavior of the framework, avoiding null results... ___________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - eMule Server .NET
Dario Solera wrote:
Perhpas this isn't actually a bug. It could be a (strange) designed behavior of the framework, avoiding null results...
This is the documented behavior, both for the 1.1 and for the 2.0 framework. If you set the property by yourself, things work. It also works for the Cancel button. I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
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Paul Watson wrote:
Maybe make one thread and stick to it.
No way. When the times comes and we have to decide whether to upgrade or not, i want to be able to point to this forum and say "look, there are roughly 3 threads per day ripping on VS2005 - is this *really* the sort of product we want to be putting our faith and money in?" Let's face it - this isn't VS2001, where changes in scope required making a huge change of direction in both the UI and the underlying architecture. Much as MS might want to think they are targetting huge new markets with this release, it's essentially the same product as the last two; most of the problems have been known since the betas, and still it was pushed out the door. This release should have been the most stable and complete of the last three, utilizing all the feedback they've been getting for the past five years... instead, it's a trainwreck. There is no amount of bad feedback too great in this sad situation.
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I agree MS and users of MS software need to be made aware but the posts I have seen here lately have not added anything new. Plus the posts are just lists of problems, not a discussion of them or the general problem. Anyway. I am watching the oil depot fires in England on telly. Loads more interesting :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Intellisense (in VS2005): Actually thats one of the parts of the IDE that has worked flawlessly so far. Help/MSDN in 2005: So far it seems fairly complete. I haven't had any problems resolving compiling issues so far. Bugs: I'm not saying I expected a bug-free product, and I'm even willing to report deficiencies when I find them. However, the complete dismissal on the part of the VS Dev Team regarding perfomance/usability issues truly pisses me off. ------------ I'm trying to avoid comparing VS2005 directly with VC6 unless I think someone needs a familiar reference. I mainly write unmanaged C++/MFC code, so I skipped VS2003. However, I at least wanted to start using the newest version of MFC because I see some value in using the latest version of that library. Unfortunately, MS is (despite their weak-ass claims to the contrary) actively trying to kill MFC and un-managed coding, so it looks like we're gonna get screwed no matter how much we bitch and moan. I can hear the whispers from future co-workers now... "Stand back, let him pass, and avert your eyes - he uses *gasp* pointers!" ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Intellisense (in VS2005): Actually thats one of the parts of the IDE that has worked flawlessly so far.
That was actually the first bug I came across when I tried out Beta 2. Since it was all too familiar, I made the assumption that it would not be fixed in the final release. I got frustrated with the Beta 2 enough, that I quit wasting my own time on it, and relied on those brave souls who carried on. If it's fixed, then that's really good news and frankly unexpected with the attitudes of the feedback centers reps in the 6 months leading up to the final release. One thing caught my attention though, you made a comment that you use the "Solution Explorer" more than the other tabs. I usually use the "Class View" and create member functions and sometimes my member variables and this is where intellisense gets/got goofy on me. Has anybody witnessed the old .ncb problems in the final release when using the "Class View" to create members? If this is fixed, then I stand corrected on that issue.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
However, I at least wanted to start using the newest version of MFC because I see some value in using the latest version of that library.
I would likely not use the managed stuff as most, if not all of my code utilizes MFC and I have to admit, the workarounds to get new functionality to work with MFC is eating away at precious time. Let us know how the experience with MFC goes in VC++ 2005. BTW, thanks for your posts.
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Daniel Turini wrote:
That no one at MS saw those bugs? VS 2005 is a good product, and indeed it makes me more productive, but it's naive to think that MS didn't notice all those bugs. It seems more and more of a software released before the bugs were fixed, because the schedule was late.
Well, if they are like me then they probably weighed up the cost of fixing the bugs against the "cost" of not fixing them. I haven't enough experience with using VS2005 to know how bad the problems are. Maybe they made the wrong call this time or maybe they really thought they had a product that would work well for the vast majority of the user-base. The 'Product Feedback Centre' is one way of registering which problems are affecting us most, so that Microsoft can fix the ones that are "pissing off" most customers. I know that some of the VS team are picking up some of the problems from reading about them on blogs but I don't know how many of the VS team are reading 'The Lounge'. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote:
Well, if they are like me then they probably weighed up the cost of fixing the bugs against the "cost" of not fixing them.
This is a sentence I see repeated again and again. Ok, so how do you measure the "cost" of fixing a bug? And how do you measure the "cost" of *not* fixing a bug? It seems to me that, when you're talking about the "cost" of fixing bugs, are you talking about the cost for *you*, and when you're talking about the "cost" of not fixing bugs, you're talking about the cost for your customers, am I right? Since we're talking about a "cost" here, we're talking about US$, right? I can understand rough predictions of the cost of bug fixing, but how can you predict the cost of a bug being left on your code? I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
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Michael P Butler wrote:
Well, if they are like me then they probably weighed up the cost of fixing the bugs against the "cost" of not fixing them.
This is a sentence I see repeated again and again. Ok, so how do you measure the "cost" of fixing a bug? And how do you measure the "cost" of *not* fixing a bug? It seems to me that, when you're talking about the "cost" of fixing bugs, are you talking about the cost for *you*, and when you're talking about the "cost" of not fixing bugs, you're talking about the cost for your customers, am I right? Since we're talking about a "cost" here, we're talking about US$, right? I can understand rough predictions of the cost of bug fixing, but how can you predict the cost of a bug being left on your code? I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!
Daniel Turini wrote:
It seems to me that, when you're talking about the "cost" of fixing bugs, are you talking about the cost for *you*, and when you're talking about the "cost" of not fixing bugs, you're talking about the cost for your customers, am I right?
Yes. It's always about balancing the cost of fixing the bug against how much not fixing it will cause your customer pain.
Daniel Turini wrote:
Since we're talking about a "cost" here, we're talking about US$, right? I can understand rough predictions of the cost of bug fixing, but how can you predict the cost of a bug being left on your code?
I think Joel explains it best[^] Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
What a bunch of fuckin' clowns...
We seem to be suffering from a bit of hit and run voting again. Perhaps somebody had been told to do their own homework in one of the other forums and so is having a childish spat... I'm going to make a suggestion to Chris that we can have an option to not show the voting in forums. I have no real interest in what other people vote for my posts or what they vote other peoples either. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote:
I have no real interest in what other people vote for my posts or what they vote other peoples either.
Exactly! All the posts in this thread are just opinions, so why should I care what your opinion is of someone else's opinion?
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Paul Watson wrote:
Maybe make one thread and stick to it.
No way. When the times comes and we have to decide whether to upgrade or not, i want to be able to point to this forum and say "look, there are roughly 3 threads per day ripping on VS2005 - is this *really* the sort of product we want to be putting our faith and money in?" Let's face it - this isn't VS2001, where changes in scope required making a huge change of direction in both the UI and the underlying architecture. Much as MS might want to think they are targetting huge new markets with this release, it's essentially the same product as the last two; most of the problems have been known since the betas, and still it was pushed out the door. This release should have been the most stable and complete of the last three, utilizing all the feedback they've been getting for the past five years... instead, it's a trainwreck. There is no amount of bad feedback too great in this sad situation.
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Shog9 wrote:
No way. When the times comes and we have to decide whether to upgrade or not, i want to be able to point to this forum and say "look, there are roughly 3 threads per day ripping on VS2005 - is this *really* the sort of product we want to be putting our faith and money in?"
Well all these posts have certainly put me off buying VS2005 in the short-term... okay, being short of cash might have something to do with it too. Personally, I feel Microsoft have fumbled this release by trying to get it out this year. They should have just sucked it up and renamed the product VS 2006 and released it in March. They might have taken a bit of stick over it but at least they'd have kept their core developer customers a little happier. In the future they should keep the big development tools releases to coincide with the release of a major OS upgrade. They should take a lesson out of their own SCRUM methodologies and release smaller updates of their tools every three months or so. Of course, I'm just a small business man and not a multi-billionaire so what do I know. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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I don't think it's tedious at all. This is the latest and (and I use the term very loosely) greatest devtool form MS, and it is IMHO, much less of a viable product than VC6 was when it was first released. Further, Microsoft's apparent disregard for performance and usability isses is pathetic. Making "one thread" doesn't work at CP because the forum software doesn't allow active threads to stay at the top of the list. I already have to scroll four or five pages just to get to the posts that I made yesterday. THAT is tedious. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Making "one thread" doesn't work at CP
I totally agree. Since this topic is obviously of general interest (judging by the number of replies to John), I think there should be a "VS 2005 Issues" forum - for both complaints and kudos. I'm suggesting this not because I want to get this topic out of the Lounge, but because I'd like to be able to reference these posts at a future time, without having to wade through thousands of search hits.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Intellisense (in VS2005): Actually thats one of the parts of the IDE that has worked flawlessly so far.
That was actually the first bug I came across when I tried out Beta 2. Since it was all too familiar, I made the assumption that it would not be fixed in the final release. I got frustrated with the Beta 2 enough, that I quit wasting my own time on it, and relied on those brave souls who carried on. If it's fixed, then that's really good news and frankly unexpected with the attitudes of the feedback centers reps in the 6 months leading up to the final release. One thing caught my attention though, you made a comment that you use the "Solution Explorer" more than the other tabs. I usually use the "Class View" and create member functions and sometimes my member variables and this is where intellisense gets/got goofy on me. Has anybody witnessed the old .ncb problems in the final release when using the "Class View" to create members? If this is fixed, then I stand corrected on that issue.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
However, I at least wanted to start using the newest version of MFC because I see some value in using the latest version of that library.
I would likely not use the managed stuff as most, if not all of my code utilizes MFC and I have to admit, the workarounds to get new functionality to work with MFC is eating away at precious time. Let us know how the experience with MFC goes in VC++ 2005. BTW, thanks for your posts.
Let us know how the experience with MFC goes in VC++ 2005. So far, it's been fairly painless. The only thing I've had to do was add a #include to STDAFX.H to use the CListView class. If you use any of the C runtime functions (like strcpy, itoa, etc) you should expect some "deprecated code" warnings. Since you're using MFC, I have no doubt that you're also calling many Win32 API functions (or macros) directly - be aware that some parameter types have changed. I can't compare the release version to the beta because I didn't use the beta (mostly because of all the complaints I saw about it. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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I'll probably be adding to this list over the course of the day (I also want to point out that I'm not just being argumentative or overly critical, I just want the product to be what I need it to be): 1) In the Solution Explorer tab of the workspace window, "Source Files" really should be the first item in the tree (like it was in VS6). It makes more sense because I'm in the source files much more than the rest. 2) The Property Manager tab should be moved into the Solution Manager tree as the last tree item. 3) When you un-pin the workspace window, and then hover the mouse over the side-tabs, the workspace window shows up, but it doesn't account for the Error List window being displayed, and covers it up. 4) I turned off window animations, but there's still a speed penalty (in the form of a 1-2 second delay) involved in displaying un-pinned windows. It's almost like the IDE is still running through the code that animates the window, but just now displaying the visual changes until the window being rolled out says "okay, I'm finished rolling out". For completeness, I'll also mention that the side tabs on BOTH sides of the screen do this. The delay is also there when you move the mouse off the window that was rolled out. 5) The XP look and the non-adherance to user-specified system-wide window properties is still pissing me off. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
And here I am holding the pack of Team Suit CDs I managed to aquire for a test run. I insert CD1 in my drive, start the install, wait for 10 mins for it to initialise (P4 3.2Ghz, 768Ram), select components and the install begins... Really it will be quicker if I typed down those files manually using binary than for installer to copy them... And install reaches the first milestone called "Insert next CD". And I do it. And install still ask me to insert damned CD2. But it is already there. But install cannot see it. Cancel. And rollback starts...and ends in another 20 mins... Goodbye VS2005. It was nice knowing ya. -------------------------------- Human stupidity is infinite.
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But none of the complaints in this thread have been about a particular language. I'm talking about usability and performance of the IDE here. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -- modified at 13:27 Sunday 11th December, 2005
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I'm talking about usability and performance of the IDE here.
And I for one and glad you are posting. I like to make informed decisions when I lay out cash for a product, and your posts here are making me informed.
"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" - mYkel - 21 Jun '04 "There's not enough blatant self-congratulatory backslapping in the world today..." - HumblePie - 21 Jun '05 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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I agree MS and users of MS software need to be made aware but the posts I have seen here lately have not added anything new. Plus the posts are just lists of problems, not a discussion of them or the general problem. Anyway. I am watching the oil depot fires in England on telly. Loads more interesting :) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
But you're still intrigued enough by the tedium to constantly check this thread and make responses. :) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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But you're still intrigued enough by the tedium to constantly check this thread and make responses. :) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Because it keeps popping into my inbox. I haven't said anything about the actual problems you had. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Daniel Turini wrote:
It seems to me that, when you're talking about the "cost" of fixing bugs, are you talking about the cost for *you*, and when you're talking about the "cost" of not fixing bugs, you're talking about the cost for your customers, am I right?
Yes. It's always about balancing the cost of fixing the bug against how much not fixing it will cause your customer pain.
Daniel Turini wrote:
Since we're talking about a "cost" here, we're talking about US$, right? I can understand rough predictions of the cost of bug fixing, but how can you predict the cost of a bug being left on your code?
I think Joel explains it best[^] Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Joel sometimes writes good articles. But sometimes, he's shallow. As in this case. Do you know where this reasoning leads to? Ford Pinto[^]. To quote the article: "Ford waited eight years because its internal "cost-benefit analysis," which places a dollar value on human life, said it wasn't profitable to make the changes sooner." If people knew that Ford Pinto had a design problem that could cause it to explode, and that cost analysis decided that it was cheaper let people die on fire, do you think that so many people would buy it? IMHO, if you decide not to fix bugs you know before you release your software, you should clearly tell your customers which bugs are known. Then, see if your customers agree with this cost analysis. I don't see dead pixels anymore... Yes, even I am blogging now!