Tab and lyrics sites in danger?
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I respect the fact that you have strong feelings on the matter. Unfortulately, although I appreciate your idealism and support for the arts, your assertions aren't consistent with the reality of copyright law. Source code allows one to reproduce a computer program that someone else wrote. Lyrics and tab (or any other kind of musical score) allows one to reproduce a song that someone else wrote. In fact, in this regard they are identical. And technically, if you perform someone's songs without paying royalties to a performing rights society such as ASCAP or BMI, yeah, you're in violation of copyright law. Most people don't care about that so much if you're not making money, like playing a gig at a bar. In the latter case, the bar makes payments to ASCAP / BMI for a blanket liscense so that bands can come in and play cover tunes. Nonetheless, whether you're making money or not, the law applies. Here's the thing. It doesn't matter how much it affects someone's ability to make a living, and it doesn't matter if it makes you Bob Dylan or Madonna. It's the law, and the law was put in place to protect the rights of creative people. People just like you. Whether you're writing songs or programs (or anything else), when someone else's rights are allowed to deteriorate, it diiminishes yours as well. I wouldn't take your source code without asking, nor would I try to reverse engineer an app you wrote. Is it really asking so much that musicians receive the same respect? Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 17:48 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
I agree with you, when it comes to posting on the internet an auhtors songbook/tabsbook. But not when it comes to posting your own interpretation. The same with code. Right here on CP there are articles that say a skinnable MSN Messenger-like popup[^] or a toolbar like the Firefox optins dialog (can't rebebmer title nor link) and there are also others. Do you think that Microsoft and Mozilla should sue the authors for reproducing their work and posting the source code? Maybe the authors managed to write the axact same code as Microsoft did or maybe not. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Paul van der Walt wrote:
I can't honestly see why not.
Because someone could download my picture and make a print if it rather than go to the art store and buy a print of it. Same is true of guitar-tabs and other onlie forms of printed music. Now, I do think it's silly of the MPA to attack the problem by suing people or jailing them (ya, right!). They should offer the ability to download the music for a buck. That way a lot more band could be covered. You will note that only the very most popular musicians are ever published in printed form.
ahz wrote:
They should offer the ability to download the music for a buck. That way a lot more band could be covered. You will note that only the very most popular musicians are ever published in printed form.
Not a bad idea - I am sat here looking at a bookcase full with tab books I have purchased over the years. However, not all tabs are 100% accurate - sometimes I find lots of different versions of the same song online for example, and I need to play a few until I find one that sounds best when, for example, played on an acoustic. A "proper" guitarist friend of mine also says that some of the printed material I have is waaaay off the sound of the record. Case in point - Green Day and the superb American Idiot album. I purchased the songbook just last week, but the chords to Boulevard of Broken Dreams sound arse when played on an acoustic. Thanks to a tab site, I found a specific (and MUCH nicer sounding) acoustic version.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:
Unfortunately, the law of often an ass.
Huh?
Sorry should of been "the law is an ass". http://www.bartleby.com/73/1002.html[^]
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
I agree with you, when it comes to posting on the internet an auhtors songbook/tabsbook. But not when it comes to posting your own interpretation. The same with code. Right here on CP there are articles that say a skinnable MSN Messenger-like popup[^] or a toolbar like the Firefox optins dialog (can't rebebmer title nor link) and there are also others. Do you think that Microsoft and Mozilla should sue the authors for reproducing their work and posting the source code? Maybe the authors managed to write the axact same code as Microsoft did or maybe not. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
You make a good point. However, I think the best analogy to this is reverse engineering, which is what you're doing when you create tab or write down the lyrics. That's clearly contestable in court. As for the articles you mention, well, there's been a lot of "look and feel" lawsuits over the years regarding this very thing. Just because an action isn't prosecuted doesn't mean it's legal, and that's where people get into trouble. If an industry has "looked the other way" for a long time, folks assume that it must be okay, and are then outraged when a company begins exercising their legal rights. As I posted below, I think that a lot of these actions are public relations nightmares and extremely stupid actions on the part of these companies since it alienates their customers. Nonetheless, they're within the law, which is the main point that I've been addressing. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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I agree - this is a joke. I play guitar. If I work out a song, am I not allowed to play it if I didn't buy the book ? Am I not allowed to show someone else how to play it ? And lyrics - I am buying a CD today because my wife heard a song, caught a few words and I googled them. How is that a copyright problem ? I know of private FTP servers I can get all the music I like from. I don't use them, I buy my own CDs and don't give them away. But this is all that will happen to tabs, they will go underground, and be as easy to find as ever. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
they will go underground, and be as easy to find as ever.
Actually, one of the most popular, http://www.ultimate-guitar.com[^], is already hosted in Russia, where these laws ... ahem ... don't count.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
I agree - this is a joke. I play guitar. If I work out a song, am I not allowed to play it if I didn't buy the book ? Am I not allowed to show someone else how to play it ? And lyrics - I am buying a CD today because my wife heard a song, caught a few words and I googled them. How is that a copyright problem ? I know of private FTP servers I can get all the music I like from. I don't use them, I buy my own CDs and don't give them away. But this is all that will happen to tabs, they will go underground, and be as easy to find as ever. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Whether it's my code, my music or my books, the Internet now allows people to freely take my work, give it to a million of their close, personal friends and cut me completely out of the loop. However, threatening and suing the people you want to pay you doesn't seem like a very good promotional campaign to me. I use an Audiotron for my home stereo. It hooks into my stereo system and plays music from all the computers on my home network. When I first bought it, I took all the CDs I'd paid for and ripped them to mp3 so that I could use them in this system. My CD player gathers dust from disuse. Now what happens if I buy a CD that's been Sonytized to keep me from ripping it to mp3? The music I just paid for can't be played on the home stereo for which it was purchased. You want to become the next Internet billionaire? Just figure out a way to solve this problem so that everyone's happy. People who create intellectual property get compensated when people enjoy their creations. Consumers can make use of the Internet and other technologies to enhance their experience. Nobody gets ripped off. Nobody gets sued. When you figure this out, let me know. I want to buy stock in your company! :) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 18:28 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
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You make a good point. However, I think the best analogy to this is reverse engineering, which is what you're doing when you create tab or write down the lyrics. That's clearly contestable in court. As for the articles you mention, well, there's been a lot of "look and feel" lawsuits over the years regarding this very thing. Just because an action isn't prosecuted doesn't mean it's legal, and that's where people get into trouble. If an industry has "looked the other way" for a long time, folks assume that it must be okay, and are then outraged when a company begins exercising their legal rights. As I posted below, I think that a lot of these actions are public relations nightmares and extremely stupid actions on the part of these companies since it alienates their customers. Nonetheless, they're within the law, which is the main point that I've been addressing. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
You having lyrins and tabs of a song doesn't make you "have the song". You'll have to buy the album to listen to the tracks right? If music were just a book with lyrics and signs(tabs) than, yeah I would agree. What about books? If I want to tell the story of a book with my own words is this breaing the copyright laws? regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Jim also made this argument, so I'll reply to both of you at the same time... In order to publish a score, the publishing company must obtain permission and typically enter into a business agreement with the author (or author's representative) to do so. Then, and only then, may they create and publish a score. The holder of the copyright owns the song in all representations. Someone else may recreate this song, regardless of format (lyrics, score, live performance, recording, etc.) only with express permission. Consequently, people who create and post tab (a score which merely uses a different notation convention), are creating illegal scores, i.e. they did not obtain this permission, and that's where they violate copyright law. I doubt that there is every any ill intent, and as a songwriter myself, I see this as a compliment. Nonetheless, in terms of rights, the folks creating the tab have none when it comes to use of the song. A publishing company who sells scores will protest this because either a) they have an exclusive agreement to reproduce the score or b) they feel the illegally posted tab competes with their legal commerce. Both positions are correct. However, any time a company asserts its legal rights in order to protect its revenue, they're quickly painted as a greedy bad guy. I can assure you that as an artist I've been screwed by many people in the music biz. Nonetheless, this doesn't remove anyone's legal rights to make money off of a deal freely entered into by all sides, or protect that income. Being a company trying to make money doesn't make you wrong. Being a non commercial, regular kinda guy doesn't make you right. Copyright law exists to protect the rights of the creative spirit, and it's neither wrong nor immoral to seek the protection of that law. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
Fair enough. And the fact that the majority of stuff tabbed online can't be bought in any form ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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ahz wrote:
They should offer the ability to download the music for a buck. That way a lot more band could be covered. You will note that only the very most popular musicians are ever published in printed form.
Not a bad idea - I am sat here looking at a bookcase full with tab books I have purchased over the years. However, not all tabs are 100% accurate - sometimes I find lots of different versions of the same song online for example, and I need to play a few until I find one that sounds best when, for example, played on an acoustic. A "proper" guitarist friend of mine also says that some of the printed material I have is waaaay off the sound of the record. Case in point - Green Day and the superb American Idiot album. I purchased the songbook just last week, but the chords to Boulevard of Broken Dreams sound arse when played on an acoustic. Thanks to a tab site, I found a specific (and MUCH nicer sounding) acoustic version.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecottYes- tab books are often atrociously wrong. I've seen stuff that was damn near impossible to play, and by changing what string some notes were played on, it became easy. Or stuff that tells you to play a song wrapping your thumb around to drone a G bass note, but the original was played tuned a tone down and in A. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Fair enough. And the fact that the majority of stuff tabbed online can't be bought in any form ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
The standard argument is that a merchant's ability to sell a product is diminished when that product (or something comparable) is offered for free. In this particular case, the justification is that selling tab interferes with selling scores. Personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch given that the quickest way to get a guitarist to turn down is to put a sheet of music in front of him. :) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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You make a good point. However, I think the best analogy to this is reverse engineering, which is what you're doing when you create tab or write down the lyrics. That's clearly contestable in court. As for the articles you mention, well, there's been a lot of "look and feel" lawsuits over the years regarding this very thing. Just because an action isn't prosecuted doesn't mean it's legal, and that's where people get into trouble. If an industry has "looked the other way" for a long time, folks assume that it must be okay, and are then outraged when a company begins exercising their legal rights. As I posted below, I think that a lot of these actions are public relations nightmares and extremely stupid actions on the part of these companies since it alienates their customers. Nonetheless, they're within the law, which is the main point that I've been addressing. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
You cannot play a song using only the lyrins and the tabs. Tabs are diagrammatic representations of the strings and frets of the instrument, which shows you how to play the sounds. Unlike the notes representation, it doesn't tell you the rhythm and duration of the notes. So you have to listen to the track in order to play it. It's like someone telling you that you have written your program in c++ and that you used clases, variables, and string connections to database, and you threatening him that he's breaking copyright laws. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Whether it's my code, my music or my books, the Internet now allows people to freely take my work, give it to a million of their close, personal friends and cut me completely out of the loop. However, threatening and suing the people you want to pay you doesn't seem like a very good promotional campaign to me. I use an Audiotron for my home stereo. It hooks into my stereo system and plays music from all the computers on my home network. When I first bought it, I took all the CDs I'd paid for and ripped them to mp3 so that I could use them in this system. My CD player gathers dust from disuse. Now what happens if I buy a CD that's been Sonytized to keep me from ripping it to mp3? The music I just paid for can't be played on the home stereo for which it was purchased. You want to become the next Internet billionaire? Just figure out a way to solve this problem so that everyone's happy. People who create intellectual property get compensated when people enjoy their creations. Consumers can make use of the Internet and other technologies to enhance their experience. Nobody gets ripped off. Nobody gets sued. When you figure this out, let me know. I want to buy stock in your company! :) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 18:28 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
Christopher Duncan wrote:
When you figure this out, let me know. I want to buy stock in your company!
*grin* That would be the point. As you say, what this is, is a promotional campaign. It's not a fight to force someone's rights, because no-one can stop illegal downloading. It cannot be done, so what needs to happen ( and what happened to me spontaneously ) is that people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them. Of course, the lower you go down the income chain, the harder people will be to convince. I can afford to buy more CD's and DVD's than I have time to enjoy. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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You having lyrins and tabs of a song doesn't make you "have the song". You'll have to buy the album to listen to the tracks right? If music were just a book with lyrics and signs(tabs) than, yeah I would agree. What about books? If I want to tell the story of a book with my own words is this breaing the copyright laws? regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Telling the story of a book in your own words would get down to splitting legal hairs in a lawsuit, where a judge would have to determine where to draw the line. If you write it all in your own words, but are clearly copying someone else's work, is that copyright violation? Beats me. It's an obvious violation of the spirit of the law, but whether or not it breaks the letter of the law (which is what I've been discussing) is a matter for highly paid legal beagles. As for lyrics & tabs, they are a form of "reproducing" the song, and are in fact explicitly covered by copyright laws. Mind you, I'm not making a case for whether or not these laws are always right or wrong, only that people who knowingly break them and then complain when they're prosecuted don't have much of a leg to stand on. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 18:52 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
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You cannot play a song using only the lyrins and the tabs. Tabs are diagrammatic representations of the strings and frets of the instrument, which shows you how to play the sounds. Unlike the notes representation, it doesn't tell you the rhythm and duration of the notes. So you have to listen to the track in order to play it. It's like someone telling you that you have written your program in c++ and that you used clases, variables, and string connections to database, and you threatening him that he's breaking copyright laws. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Yeah, I'm with you, man, but that's not how the law sees it. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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Yeah, I'm with you, man, but that's not how the law sees it. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
It's how the music industry greed sees it. As I said, when having lyrics and tabs you have to buy the album in order to play the tunes. Also as others said, a lot of people including me have started playing because of tabs and lyrics widely available. This tab/lyrics phenomenon does only to encourage people into buying more records as they probably would. And I bet the music industry know this. But beeing a huge phenomenon they also saw a new way of making more money. I bet that after this whole legale action against sites they will make their authors edit songbooks/tabbooks and they will sell them to the same sites in order to be published. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
When you figure this out, let me know. I want to buy stock in your company!
*grin* That would be the point. As you say, what this is, is a promotional campaign. It's not a fight to force someone's rights, because no-one can stop illegal downloading. It cannot be done, so what needs to happen ( and what happened to me spontaneously ) is that people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them. Of course, the lower you go down the income chain, the harder people will be to convince. I can afford to buy more CD's and DVD's than I have time to enjoy. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them
Yeah, now you're getting down to the real meat of the matter. I don't know much about the progression of societies in countries other than America, but in this country I've seen a steady deterioration of attitudes and ethics through the past three or four decades. There's also a huge sense of entitlement here, along with a lack of accountability. People feel that they "deserve" things for no other reason than being born, and are quick to dismiss any personal responsibilty for how their actions affect others. Not content to just sit back and whine about this, addressing these issues in a practical manner is the topic of my next book. Of course, since they say "write what you know", I'll be addressing American society exclusively. That's my chunk. There's plenty of the world left for everyone else. ;) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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Christian Graus wrote:
people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them
Yeah, now you're getting down to the real meat of the matter. I don't know much about the progression of societies in countries other than America, but in this country I've seen a steady deterioration of attitudes and ethics through the past three or four decades. There's also a huge sense of entitlement here, along with a lack of accountability. People feel that they "deserve" things for no other reason than being born, and are quick to dismiss any personal responsibilty for how their actions affect others. Not content to just sit back and whine about this, addressing these issues in a practical manner is the topic of my next book. Of course, since they say "write what you know", I'll be addressing American society exclusively. That's my chunk. There's plenty of the world left for everyone else. ;) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
People feel that they "deserve" things for no other reason than being born, and are quick to dismiss any personal responsibilty for how their actions affect others.
Yes, I am only 36 years old, but I'd say that's definately the attitude I've seen grow over the years.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
That's my chunk. There's plenty of the world left for everyone else.
We're not that different to the USA, hell most of our popular culture comes from you guys. The only real difference I detected was cuisine. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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It's how the music industry greed sees it. As I said, when having lyrics and tabs you have to buy the album in order to play the tunes. Also as others said, a lot of people including me have started playing because of tabs and lyrics widely available. This tab/lyrics phenomenon does only to encourage people into buying more records as they probably would. And I bet the music industry know this. But beeing a huge phenomenon they also saw a new way of making more money. I bet that after this whole legale action against sites they will make their authors edit songbooks/tabbooks and they will sell them to the same sites in order to be published. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Well, I'm glad that there are laws in place to protect musicians, since they're usually the first ones to be screwed in any business dealing. However, I agree in spirit with what you're saying - I think a lot of music companies are handling this entire Internet issue stupidly. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
What next? Will the record companies be shutting down sites because individual words or phrases are similar to popular lyrics. Don't Be Cruel, you Can't Stop The Music...
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
So all the tab sites will soon end with a .ru name. Fine. cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP