Tab and lyrics sites in danger?
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You make a good point. However, I think the best analogy to this is reverse engineering, which is what you're doing when you create tab or write down the lyrics. That's clearly contestable in court. As for the articles you mention, well, there's been a lot of "look and feel" lawsuits over the years regarding this very thing. Just because an action isn't prosecuted doesn't mean it's legal, and that's where people get into trouble. If an industry has "looked the other way" for a long time, folks assume that it must be okay, and are then outraged when a company begins exercising their legal rights. As I posted below, I think that a lot of these actions are public relations nightmares and extremely stupid actions on the part of these companies since it alienates their customers. Nonetheless, they're within the law, which is the main point that I've been addressing. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
You having lyrins and tabs of a song doesn't make you "have the song". You'll have to buy the album to listen to the tracks right? If music were just a book with lyrics and signs(tabs) than, yeah I would agree. What about books? If I want to tell the story of a book with my own words is this breaing the copyright laws? regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Jim also made this argument, so I'll reply to both of you at the same time... In order to publish a score, the publishing company must obtain permission and typically enter into a business agreement with the author (or author's representative) to do so. Then, and only then, may they create and publish a score. The holder of the copyright owns the song in all representations. Someone else may recreate this song, regardless of format (lyrics, score, live performance, recording, etc.) only with express permission. Consequently, people who create and post tab (a score which merely uses a different notation convention), are creating illegal scores, i.e. they did not obtain this permission, and that's where they violate copyright law. I doubt that there is every any ill intent, and as a songwriter myself, I see this as a compliment. Nonetheless, in terms of rights, the folks creating the tab have none when it comes to use of the song. A publishing company who sells scores will protest this because either a) they have an exclusive agreement to reproduce the score or b) they feel the illegally posted tab competes with their legal commerce. Both positions are correct. However, any time a company asserts its legal rights in order to protect its revenue, they're quickly painted as a greedy bad guy. I can assure you that as an artist I've been screwed by many people in the music biz. Nonetheless, this doesn't remove anyone's legal rights to make money off of a deal freely entered into by all sides, or protect that income. Being a company trying to make money doesn't make you wrong. Being a non commercial, regular kinda guy doesn't make you right. Copyright law exists to protect the rights of the creative spirit, and it's neither wrong nor immoral to seek the protection of that law. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
Fair enough. And the fact that the majority of stuff tabbed online can't be bought in any form ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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ahz wrote:
They should offer the ability to download the music for a buck. That way a lot more band could be covered. You will note that only the very most popular musicians are ever published in printed form.
Not a bad idea - I am sat here looking at a bookcase full with tab books I have purchased over the years. However, not all tabs are 100% accurate - sometimes I find lots of different versions of the same song online for example, and I need to play a few until I find one that sounds best when, for example, played on an acoustic. A "proper" guitarist friend of mine also says that some of the printed material I have is waaaay off the sound of the record. Case in point - Green Day and the superb American Idiot album. I purchased the songbook just last week, but the chords to Boulevard of Broken Dreams sound arse when played on an acoustic. Thanks to a tab site, I found a specific (and MUCH nicer sounding) acoustic version.
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecottYes- tab books are often atrociously wrong. I've seen stuff that was damn near impossible to play, and by changing what string some notes were played on, it became easy. Or stuff that tells you to play a song wrapping your thumb around to drone a G bass note, but the original was played tuned a tone down and in A. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Fair enough. And the fact that the majority of stuff tabbed online can't be bought in any form ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
The standard argument is that a merchant's ability to sell a product is diminished when that product (or something comparable) is offered for free. In this particular case, the justification is that selling tab interferes with selling scores. Personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch given that the quickest way to get a guitarist to turn down is to put a sheet of music in front of him. :) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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You make a good point. However, I think the best analogy to this is reverse engineering, which is what you're doing when you create tab or write down the lyrics. That's clearly contestable in court. As for the articles you mention, well, there's been a lot of "look and feel" lawsuits over the years regarding this very thing. Just because an action isn't prosecuted doesn't mean it's legal, and that's where people get into trouble. If an industry has "looked the other way" for a long time, folks assume that it must be okay, and are then outraged when a company begins exercising their legal rights. As I posted below, I think that a lot of these actions are public relations nightmares and extremely stupid actions on the part of these companies since it alienates their customers. Nonetheless, they're within the law, which is the main point that I've been addressing. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
You cannot play a song using only the lyrins and the tabs. Tabs are diagrammatic representations of the strings and frets of the instrument, which shows you how to play the sounds. Unlike the notes representation, it doesn't tell you the rhythm and duration of the notes. So you have to listen to the track in order to play it. It's like someone telling you that you have written your program in c++ and that you used clases, variables, and string connections to database, and you threatening him that he's breaking copyright laws. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Whether it's my code, my music or my books, the Internet now allows people to freely take my work, give it to a million of their close, personal friends and cut me completely out of the loop. However, threatening and suing the people you want to pay you doesn't seem like a very good promotional campaign to me. I use an Audiotron for my home stereo. It hooks into my stereo system and plays music from all the computers on my home network. When I first bought it, I took all the CDs I'd paid for and ripped them to mp3 so that I could use them in this system. My CD player gathers dust from disuse. Now what happens if I buy a CD that's been Sonytized to keep me from ripping it to mp3? The music I just paid for can't be played on the home stereo for which it was purchased. You want to become the next Internet billionaire? Just figure out a way to solve this problem so that everyone's happy. People who create intellectual property get compensated when people enjoy their creations. Consumers can make use of the Internet and other technologies to enhance their experience. Nobody gets ripped off. Nobody gets sued. When you figure this out, let me know. I want to buy stock in your company! :) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 18:28 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
Christopher Duncan wrote:
When you figure this out, let me know. I want to buy stock in your company!
*grin* That would be the point. As you say, what this is, is a promotional campaign. It's not a fight to force someone's rights, because no-one can stop illegal downloading. It cannot be done, so what needs to happen ( and what happened to me spontaneously ) is that people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them. Of course, the lower you go down the income chain, the harder people will be to convince. I can afford to buy more CD's and DVD's than I have time to enjoy. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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You having lyrins and tabs of a song doesn't make you "have the song". You'll have to buy the album to listen to the tracks right? If music were just a book with lyrics and signs(tabs) than, yeah I would agree. What about books? If I want to tell the story of a book with my own words is this breaing the copyright laws? regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Telling the story of a book in your own words would get down to splitting legal hairs in a lawsuit, where a judge would have to determine where to draw the line. If you write it all in your own words, but are clearly copying someone else's work, is that copyright violation? Beats me. It's an obvious violation of the spirit of the law, but whether or not it breaks the letter of the law (which is what I've been discussing) is a matter for highly paid legal beagles. As for lyrics & tabs, they are a form of "reproducing" the song, and are in fact explicitly covered by copyright laws. Mind you, I'm not making a case for whether or not these laws are always right or wrong, only that people who knowingly break them and then complain when they're prosecuted don't have much of a leg to stand on. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio) -- modified at 18:52 Tuesday 20th December, 2005
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You cannot play a song using only the lyrins and the tabs. Tabs are diagrammatic representations of the strings and frets of the instrument, which shows you how to play the sounds. Unlike the notes representation, it doesn't tell you the rhythm and duration of the notes. So you have to listen to the track in order to play it. It's like someone telling you that you have written your program in c++ and that you used clases, variables, and string connections to database, and you threatening him that he's breaking copyright laws. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Yeah, I'm with you, man, but that's not how the law sees it. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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Yeah, I'm with you, man, but that's not how the law sees it. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
It's how the music industry greed sees it. As I said, when having lyrics and tabs you have to buy the album in order to play the tunes. Also as others said, a lot of people including me have started playing because of tabs and lyrics widely available. This tab/lyrics phenomenon does only to encourage people into buying more records as they probably would. And I bet the music industry know this. But beeing a huge phenomenon they also saw a new way of making more money. I bet that after this whole legale action against sites they will make their authors edit songbooks/tabbooks and they will sell them to the same sites in order to be published. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
When you figure this out, let me know. I want to buy stock in your company!
*grin* That would be the point. As you say, what this is, is a promotional campaign. It's not a fight to force someone's rights, because no-one can stop illegal downloading. It cannot be done, so what needs to happen ( and what happened to me spontaneously ) is that people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them. Of course, the lower you go down the income chain, the harder people will be to convince. I can afford to buy more CD's and DVD's than I have time to enjoy. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them
Yeah, now you're getting down to the real meat of the matter. I don't know much about the progression of societies in countries other than America, but in this country I've seen a steady deterioration of attitudes and ethics through the past three or four decades. There's also a huge sense of entitlement here, along with a lack of accountability. People feel that they "deserve" things for no other reason than being born, and are quick to dismiss any personal responsibilty for how their actions affect others. Not content to just sit back and whine about this, addressing these issues in a practical manner is the topic of my next book. Of course, since they say "write what you know", I'll be addressing American society exclusively. That's my chunk. There's plenty of the world left for everyone else. ;) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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Christian Graus wrote:
people need to be made to care enough about IP to *choose* to buy things instead of stealing them
Yeah, now you're getting down to the real meat of the matter. I don't know much about the progression of societies in countries other than America, but in this country I've seen a steady deterioration of attitudes and ethics through the past three or four decades. There's also a huge sense of entitlement here, along with a lack of accountability. People feel that they "deserve" things for no other reason than being born, and are quick to dismiss any personal responsibilty for how their actions affect others. Not content to just sit back and whine about this, addressing these issues in a practical manner is the topic of my next book. Of course, since they say "write what you know", I'll be addressing American society exclusively. That's my chunk. There's plenty of the world left for everyone else. ;) Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
Christopher Duncan wrote:
People feel that they "deserve" things for no other reason than being born, and are quick to dismiss any personal responsibilty for how their actions affect others.
Yes, I am only 36 years old, but I'd say that's definately the attitude I've seen grow over the years.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
That's my chunk. There's plenty of the world left for everyone else.
We're not that different to the USA, hell most of our popular culture comes from you guys. The only real difference I detected was cuisine. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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It's how the music industry greed sees it. As I said, when having lyrics and tabs you have to buy the album in order to play the tunes. Also as others said, a lot of people including me have started playing because of tabs and lyrics widely available. This tab/lyrics phenomenon does only to encourage people into buying more records as they probably would. And I bet the music industry know this. But beeing a huge phenomenon they also saw a new way of making more money. I bet that after this whole legale action against sites they will make their authors edit songbooks/tabbooks and they will sell them to the same sites in order to be published. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Well, I'm glad that there are laws in place to protect musicians, since they're usually the first ones to be screwed in any business dealing. However, I agree in spirit with what you're saying - I think a lot of music companies are handling this entire Internet issue stupidly. Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
What next? Will the record companies be shutting down sites because individual words or phrases are similar to popular lyrics. Don't Be Cruel, you Can't Stop The Music...
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm[^] The music industry is to extend its copyright war by taking legal action against websites offering unlicensed song scores and lyrics. I certainly hope that a) this isn't a repost and that b) I will not be sent packing to the soap box. I haven't posted much on CP lately but this just came as such a shock I had to complain somewhere. IMHO this is plain outrageous; sites like taborama.com[^] offer user posted tabs (not copied scorebooks) and lyrics, which as far as I know the authors have rights over. They have temporarily removed access to a large number of tabs while this is happening... I don't know what you people think of this but to me it seems like it's really a step further than is reasonable. These tabs are used mainly for home hobby purposes and I can't see the justification for banning personal peoples' interpretation of music. Am I totally off track here? Don't get me wrong here, I agree that for instance sharing copyrighted music in any form is wrong, but I consider this a completely different matter. Paul
So all the tab sites will soon end with a .ru name. Fine. cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
People feel that they "deserve" things for no other reason than being born, and are quick to dismiss any personal responsibilty for how their actions affect others.
Yes, I am only 36 years old, but I'd say that's definately the attitude I've seen grow over the years.
Christopher Duncan wrote:
That's my chunk. There's plenty of the world left for everyone else.
We're not that different to the USA, hell most of our popular culture comes from you guys. The only real difference I detected was cuisine. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
The only real difference I detected was cuisine.
What, no pizza on your side of the pond? :omg: Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
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Christian Graus wrote:
The only real difference I detected was cuisine.
What, no pizza on your side of the pond? :omg: Christopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Composer Channel (Internet radio)
1000 fast food chains that mostly sell the same crap, but all of it is incredibly cheap pretty decent beef, I must say a tendency towards cherry and grape as flavours, two things we don't see here an inability to serve fast food in a remotely reasonable size ( I could order a small and eat for two days, soft drink servings are the worst ) no fish and chip shops ( that I saw ) Cherry Mountain Dew ( yum !!! ) Banana Cream Pie and Coconut Cream Pie ( double yum ) sweets for breakfast ( I was routinely given sticky buns at break fast time, and the cereals - don't get me started. Then there was the waffles... ) My overall impression is that people in the USA eat out a lot more than we do. A friend tells me he met people who were amazed that we cook our own food every night, that these particular people would cook only when they had guests. I assume this is not the norm, but I know that the main guy I talk to in the US tells me he eats out most nights, too. Oh, and all of your chocolate tastes like absolute crap. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Paul van der Walt wrote:
Ah, but that's where this is totally different - the sites we're talking about allow users to post their own approximated tablatures, that they've created by listening to the tune. They're expressly *not* copied from songbooks or other people or the band etc. The users (read: authors) post the tabs themselves.
so what you're saying is if I "copied" the Mona Lisa painting using my own paints and canvas and then uploaded a digital copy of it to the internet, that should be allowed?
ahz wrote:
so what you're saying is if I "copied" the Mona Lisa painting using my own paints and canvas and then uploaded a digital copy of it to the internet, that should be allowed?
If you paint your own version of Mona Lisa and try to sell it as being the original the (justifiable) charge would be fraud and not copyright infringement. But I'm fairly sure (I'm just a bad programmer, not a lawyer :~ ) that if you try to publish a photo of the original in a book or article you have to get the approval of the copyright owner. Since the lyrics of a song are something a lot simpler than Mona Lisa, I'd say a transcript is a good enough copy to raise copyright issues. Put it another way: you could buy an audio version of your preferred book and you write down the content. Do you think that should be allowed? OGR
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"Unauthorised use of lyrics and tablature deprives the songwriter of the ability to make a living" oh right, why doesn't he say what he really means. The record labels saw a new opportunity to make more money, by asking sites to pay for the tabs and lyrics. And is really absurd not to be able to post your own tab to the internet. Most of the tabs aren't that accurate just because they are not pirrated but written by someone that just listened to the tune. What about lyics? It's not that you can't hear them while playing the tune. All this seems to me pretty unfair, but after all, like there always is, the big bananas make the rules. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Mircea Grelus wrote:
...the big bananas make the rules.
Yeah, but you make the big bananas.
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1000 fast food chains that mostly sell the same crap, but all of it is incredibly cheap pretty decent beef, I must say a tendency towards cherry and grape as flavours, two things we don't see here an inability to serve fast food in a remotely reasonable size ( I could order a small and eat for two days, soft drink servings are the worst ) no fish and chip shops ( that I saw ) Cherry Mountain Dew ( yum !!! ) Banana Cream Pie and Coconut Cream Pie ( double yum ) sweets for breakfast ( I was routinely given sticky buns at break fast time, and the cereals - don't get me started. Then there was the waffles... ) My overall impression is that people in the USA eat out a lot more than we do. A friend tells me he met people who were amazed that we cook our own food every night, that these particular people would cook only when they had guests. I assume this is not the norm, but I know that the main guy I talk to in the US tells me he eats out most nights, too. Oh, and all of your chocolate tastes like absolute crap. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
people in the USA eat out a lot more than we do
probably true in general
Christian Graus wrote:
this is not the norm
it is not the norm to eat out *every* night, but once a week is probably the norm. Eating out for lunch daily because of work is the norm for most people.
Christian Graus wrote:
Oh, and all of your chocolate tastes like absolute crap.
That's definately true. Except the imported stuff.
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Sorry should of been "the law is an ass". http://www.bartleby.com/73/1002.html[^]
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecottah, yes Dickens. I get it. I agree.