Here we go again - part 2
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Nothing is ever bad until it affects you personally. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: I already started on the new trade thing. Yep, me too. Got out of the coding business and went full time into writing, speaking, and composing music for film / tv. Of course, I'll still be involved in tech as a writer and speaker, but I'm done with the coding thing. 15 years is enough, and I was getting bored. I tend to change careers every 10 or 12 years, so by my clock the decision was a little behind schedule anyway. :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
I know what you mean, when learning a new industry I find myself eager to learn like when I was a teenager. I've long since lost that after finding out about the downside of the tech industry. It's kinda fun to be dumb again. :) Jeremy Falcon
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Okay, this might be more soapbox material - but no more so than the original outsourcing thread. It seems the world is moving toward a more global economy... which means countries like India will see their quiality of life improving as more jobs move into their country. I read a statistic once (can't remember where) that said that the poorest 5% in the US is richer than the richest 95% of the rest of the world. The US economy and people have always been resillient - we will find new ways of making money even if old jobs disappear. So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
well i'll say what has alrady been said in this type of debate ... its all about the value proposition you present to the potential buyer ... outsourcing overseas is happening because companies see a better potential value proposition in using indian (for example) programmers instead of american ones ... whether this is a real cost saving remains to be seen as there are other costs involved like managing remote workers who have a different culture and time zone (to mention just 2) when oo methodology was first coming to the marketplace it was embraced because it said it would save money for the companies that adopted it outsourcing is no different and it will stand or fall when the financial results start showing up meantime if you want to keep in work (and i do) you have to change ur expectations to match what is reality in the marketplace ... value for money is always going to win out :)
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Not so sure about that - what about doctors, lawyers, tax advisers, businesspeople, etc.? Lots of good jobs still in demand, of course it takes a lot of work to become a doctor or lawyer. A lot of manual labor but well-paying jobs are in demand too, such as mechanics, plumbers, etc. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: Not so sure about that - what about doctors, lawyers, tax advisers, businesspeople, etc.? Lots of good jobs still in demand, of course it takes a lot of work to become a doctor or lawyer. A lot of manual labor but well-paying jobs are in demand too, such as mechanics, plumbers, etc. Research and Development: GE Research center created in Bangalore[^] Pharmacutical Research moves to India[^] Here's a big list of things being outsourced: http://www.outsource2india.com/why_india/articles/what_outsource.asp[^] Doctors jobs are increasingly being outsourced to India (though obviously some of them have to stay here). For example, people are increasingly being flown to India to have major surgury done because it is so much cheaper (even with the cost of air travel). Medical transcription and X-ray interpretation of US patients is also being done more and more in India. Tax preparation is also being done in India. Indians are being trained in American law so that they can do legal work for Americans ( "Forrester Research Inc., a Cambridge, Mass.-based market research firm, predicts that more than 489,000 U.S. lawyer jobs, nearly 8 percent of the field, will shift abroad by 2015." http://www.law.com/jsp/cc/pubarticleCC.jsp?id=1090180413835[^] ) The jobs that stay in the US are the ones that require geographical proximity. Unfortunately, there are a lot of jobs that don't require geographical proximity. If I left the software development field, I would like to go into biotechnology, but that is increasingly being shipped to India as well because there is no geographical proximity requirement for biotechnology. (See the link above about the pharmacutical research being shifted to India.) So the trick is: can I find an interesting,
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And bad is subjective. Some people consider any change as bad. Others adapt to it, still others grow and improve because of it. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
I understand what you're saying, and to a degree agree with you. However, most people consider spontaneous loss of income a Bad Thing, particularly when the bills come due. Having changed careers several times in my life, I'm all for moving on to the Next Cool Thing. But that's substantially different from losing a job and having no ready options to replace the income. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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I know what you mean, when learning a new industry I find myself eager to learn like when I was a teenager. I've long since lost that after finding out about the downside of the tech industry. It's kinda fun to be dumb again. :) Jeremy Falcon
So what's the new direction? Stories, man! We want stories! :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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Navin wrote: Not so sure about that - what about doctors, lawyers, tax advisers, businesspeople, etc.? Lots of good jobs still in demand, of course it takes a lot of work to become a doctor or lawyer. A lot of manual labor but well-paying jobs are in demand too, such as mechanics, plumbers, etc. Research and Development: GE Research center created in Bangalore[^] Pharmacutical Research moves to India[^] Here's a big list of things being outsourced: http://www.outsource2india.com/why_india/articles/what_outsource.asp[^] Doctors jobs are increasingly being outsourced to India (though obviously some of them have to stay here). For example, people are increasingly being flown to India to have major surgury done because it is so much cheaper (even with the cost of air travel). Medical transcription and X-ray interpretation of US patients is also being done more and more in India. Tax preparation is also being done in India. Indians are being trained in American law so that they can do legal work for Americans ( "Forrester Research Inc., a Cambridge, Mass.-based market research firm, predicts that more than 489,000 U.S. lawyer jobs, nearly 8 percent of the field, will shift abroad by 2015." http://www.law.com/jsp/cc/pubarticleCC.jsp?id=1090180413835[^] ) The jobs that stay in the US are the ones that require geographical proximity. Unfortunately, there are a lot of jobs that don't require geographical proximity. If I left the software development field, I would like to go into biotechnology, but that is increasingly being shipped to India as well because there is no geographical proximity requirement for biotechnology. (See the link above about the pharmacutical research being shifted to India.) So the trick is: can I find an interesting,
Brit wrote: can I find an interesting, intellectual, well-paying job that has a geographical-proximity requirement? Appliance repairmen will always be in demand! The last one that came to my residence charged $75 per hour.
"Opinions are neither right nor wrong. I cannot change your opinion of me. I can, however, change what influences your opinion." - David Crow
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I understand what you're saying, and to a degree agree with you. However, most people consider spontaneous loss of income a Bad Thing, particularly when the bills come due. Having changed careers several times in my life, I'm all for moving on to the Next Cool Thing. But that's substantially different from losing a job and having no ready options to replace the income. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
YEs, I see what you are saying. Of course, that also brings attention to the fact that (yes, and I'm included in this :-O ) most Americans aren't saving nearly enough, which means that losing a job can be catastrophic. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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So what's the new direction? Stories, man! We want stories! :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
LOL! I'm learning the ins-and-outs of real estate investing. Right now, I'm studying every there is to know about mortgages, leases, creative financing, etc. To make money at this, I'm going to have to know a lot of info and tricks of the trade, and that's what I plan to do. As long as we have people to want to live, we'll always have a need for real estate. And, it always appreciates in value. [edit] Ok, some times it doesn't, but you have to know your market. [/edit] On top of that, there's insurance to cover you butt in case the property is mutilated. So, all-in-all, it's a pretty safe way to make moola. After I gain enough experience, I may even write software tailored for real estate investors as well (AFAIK, they don't have anything like that yet). Jeremy Falcon
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LOL! I'm learning the ins-and-outs of real estate investing. Right now, I'm studying every there is to know about mortgages, leases, creative financing, etc. To make money at this, I'm going to have to know a lot of info and tricks of the trade, and that's what I plan to do. As long as we have people to want to live, we'll always have a need for real estate. And, it always appreciates in value. [edit] Ok, some times it doesn't, but you have to know your market. [/edit] On top of that, there's insurance to cover you butt in case the property is mutilated. So, all-in-all, it's a pretty safe way to make moola. After I gain enough experience, I may even write software tailored for real estate investors as well (AFAIK, they don't have anything like that yet). Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: After I gain enough experience, I may even write software tailored for real estate investors as well (AFAIK, they don't have anything like that yet). Typical programmer... ;) Coolness, man! When you're rich, invite me over for a weekend on the yacht! :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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YEs, I see what you are saying. Of course, that also brings attention to the fact that (yes, and I'm included in this :-O ) most Americans aren't saving nearly enough, which means that losing a job can be catastrophic. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Yeah, that's the really scary part for most folks. I've known a lot of people over the years who pretty much spend what they make each month just to make ends meet, put clothes on the kids, etc. However, as you pointed out, there are often many positive ways to cope with what seems like disaster. Even if it gets a bit dicey for a moment, oft times an unexpected turn in their careers has prompted many people to move into a new area that turned out to be an even better life for them. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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That's actually a smart thing to do, I can forsee in the future technology being more vertical... there will be a need for, say, medical professionals who can program, etc. I've even thoguht about getting an MBA... businesspeople who are tech-savvy can make a ton of money... An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: I've even thoguht about getting an MBA... businesspeople who are tech-savvy can make a ton of money... Since I'm doing an MBA at the moment I guess there is hope for me yet. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies Attention: It's finally arrived, The worlds first DSP.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: After I gain enough experience, I may even write software tailored for real estate investors as well (AFAIK, they don't have anything like that yet). Typical programmer... ;) Coolness, man! When you're rich, invite me over for a weekend on the yacht! :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
Typical programmer... It's in my blood. Coolness, man! When you're rich, invite me over for a weekend on the yacht! Well, I'm starting small. I just want enough income produced by it to cover my living expenses. That way I can program for fun again. If I do end up with a yacht some how, I'll sail it to Atlanta and bring the :beer:. :) Jeremy Falcon
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Typical programmer... It's in my blood. Coolness, man! When you're rich, invite me over for a weekend on the yacht! Well, I'm starting small. I just want enough income produced by it to cover my living expenses. That way I can program for fun again. If I do end up with a yacht some how, I'll sail it to Atlanta and bring the :beer:. :) Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: If I do end up with a yacht some how, I'll sail it to Atlanta and bring the :beer:. Color me there! :) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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Okay, this might be more soapbox material - but no more so than the original outsourcing thread. It seems the world is moving toward a more global economy... which means countries like India will see their quiality of life improving as more jobs move into their country. I read a statistic once (can't remember where) that said that the poorest 5% in the US is richer than the richest 95% of the rest of the world. The US economy and people have always been resillient - we will find new ways of making money even if old jobs disappear. So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Navin wrote: So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? Hmmm. Because I'm also one of those whacko people that believes that corporate profits are not the only responsibility of a company. I personally think that businesses have a moral responsibility. And to me, this means looking out for your immediate neighbor first. But I realize this kind of thinking has gone the way of the Dodo bird, if it even ever existed. Look at the American industrial revolution. It was built and the economic wheels turned as a result of "outsourcing" work to children and women because they were cheaper and more complacent than men. Morality, concern for one's fellow human being, had absolutely no place in the cotton mills. It's pretty sad to see history repeat itself with outsourcing (and I don't mean just outsourcing programming jobs). The foundations of outsourcing are driven by greed. The workforce in that industry is also driven by greed--I freely admit that I try to get the highest dollar possible on my contracts so that I can have the best quality of life possible. The problem with my thinking is that it's all me, me, me, without regard for my neighbor, while at the same time I expect corporations to behave morally and to express concern for my neighbor which I, myself, do not. Uh. To get back to the question, outsourcing is bad because it doesn't address the problem of greed and the disparity between those who have and those who don't have. In fact it creates this disparity in two ways, by taking jobs away from people locally, and by giving those jobs to other people which promotes more disparity locally. Certainly places like India and Russia ask the top dollar possible themselves. The only way, and it's quite painful obviously, to break this cycle is for people to simply not be so damn greedy. So the issue of morality falls yet again on my shoulders, not on the corporation to which I would rather pass the morality buck. Well, that's my twisted view of the world. Quack, quack, or whatever sound Dodo's used to make. :-D Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
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LOL! I'm learning the ins-and-outs of real estate investing. Right now, I'm studying every there is to know about mortgages, leases, creative financing, etc. To make money at this, I'm going to have to know a lot of info and tricks of the trade, and that's what I plan to do. As long as we have people to want to live, we'll always have a need for real estate. And, it always appreciates in value. [edit] Ok, some times it doesn't, but you have to know your market. [/edit] On top of that, there's insurance to cover you butt in case the property is mutilated. So, all-in-all, it's a pretty safe way to make moola. After I gain enough experience, I may even write software tailored for real estate investors as well (AFAIK, they don't have anything like that yet). Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I'm learning the ins-and-outs of real estate investing. I have been doing that as well. It's amazing how simple some of the alternative systems are and what long term affect they have. Recently I set up a mortgage retailing system for an aquaintance. I was surprised to discover a lot of stuff doing this like how the mortgage wholesalers were still 100% fax communications controlled. Regardz Colin J Davies Attention: It's finally arrived, The worlds first DSP.
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Okay, this might be more soapbox material - but no more so than the original outsourcing thread. It seems the world is moving toward a more global economy... which means countries like India will see their quiality of life improving as more jobs move into their country. I read a statistic once (can't remember where) that said that the poorest 5% in the US is richer than the richest 95% of the rest of the world. The US economy and people have always been resillient - we will find new ways of making money even if old jobs disappear. So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Bad thing / good thing it's all relative. As others have already pointed out, it's bad for you if it takes your job away, good for you if it gives you a job. Stating that it is fundamentally one or the other is useless - except for those trying to stir up bad feelings towards [concepts | non-protectionist politicians | protectionist politicians | Indians | etc.].
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan... -
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I'm learning the ins-and-outs of real estate investing. I have been doing that as well. It's amazing how simple some of the alternative systems are and what long term affect they have. Recently I set up a mortgage retailing system for an aquaintance. I was surprised to discover a lot of stuff doing this like how the mortgage wholesalers were still 100% fax communications controlled. Regardz Colin J Davies Attention: It's finally arrived, The worlds first DSP.
Cool. I already became acquaintances with one a really good realtor into investing around the greater New Orleans area, so I’m optimistic about what the future holds. Jeremy Falcon
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Okay, this might be more soapbox material - but no more so than the original outsourcing thread. It seems the world is moving toward a more global economy... which means countries like India will see their quiality of life improving as more jobs move into their country. I read a statistic once (can't remember where) that said that the poorest 5% in the US is richer than the richest 95% of the rest of the world. The US economy and people have always been resillient - we will find new ways of making money even if old jobs disappear. So, from a global perspective, why is outsourcing a bad thing? An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
I would say in the long term it's a good thing but those who have had it comparatively easy (including here in the UK) take the lumps until the global economy settles down more. As an example, the sudden rush to open call centres in India has slowed to a trickle now the supply of good english speaking graduates has been used up. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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And, if MS can claim OSS is communism, then I can say the same thing about a global economy and outsourcing. :) BTW, I don't buy into the fact that outsourcing will save the world. One of the main reasons India is like it is, is because of over population. So, even a small percentage having tech jobs won't solve the issue. Jeremy Falcon
One of the reasons India is like it is because it is one of the few (maybe only ?) countries to have taken the colonial governments and administrations and successfully transform it into something of their own then progressed in terms of education and industry quite quickly - India launch some of their own satellites I believe. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D