The criticism starts already
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David Wulff wrote: ...the USA just isn't that important in most people's lives... I've been told on many occassions here in the CP Soapbox by non-Americans (including Brits, Aussies and a certain South African) that the US and the POTUS have a significant affect on their daily lives. I tend to agree with you. I hope you'll jump in and set them straight the next time it arises. ;) [EDIT] Score: 1.0 (1 vote). It's stupid shit like this that makes me wonder why I even bother. :mad: Whomever voted this a one... be an adult and post a reply!!! [/EDIT] "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
There is a big difference between the US, and its foreign policies, and an even bigger problem getting some people to realise this. US foreign policy affects what I can and can't do in my home outside of the US borders - that is the purpose of foreign policy when a country has influence - but I can honestly say the only time in my day I ever think about the US in any capacity is when I am on CodeProject talking to, interestingly, Americans. Most people are really more concerned with what is happening and how to fix problems than placing blame and finding fault - not that you would be able to guess that from the politicans.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: That's news to me. western:[^]
1 a : coming from the west b : lying toward the west 2 capitalized : of, relating to, or characteristic of a region conventionally designated West: as a : steeped in or stemming from the Greco-Roman traditions b : of or relating to the noncommunist countries of Europe and America c : of or relating to the American West 3 capitalized : of or relating to the Roman Catholic or Protestant segment of Christianity
The West[^] Jeremy Falcon wrote: What is Egeland's nationality? he's from Norway Software | Cleek
Chris Losinger wrote: western:[^] 1 a : coming from the west b : lying toward the west 2 capitalized : of, relating to, or characteristic of a region conventionally designated West: as a : steeped in or stemming from the Greco-Roman traditions b : of or relating to the noncommunist countries of Europe and America c : of or relating to the American West 3 capitalized : of or relating to the Roman Catholic or Protestant segment of Christianity The West[^] Jeremy Falcon wrote: What is Egeland's nationality? he's from Norway Anyone who voted down this post really is a jerk. Some people apparently can't handle being given correct information. John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
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There is a big difference between the US, and its foreign policies, and an even bigger problem getting some people to realise this. US foreign policy affects what I can and can't do in my home outside of the US borders - that is the purpose of foreign policy when a country has influence - but I can honestly say the only time in my day I ever think about the US in any capacity is when I am on CodeProject talking to, interestingly, Americans. Most people are really more concerned with what is happening and how to fix problems than placing blame and finding fault - not that you would be able to guess that from the politicans.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
Not to purposely stir a hornet's nest, but after hearing the rhetoric from many Europeans on the eve of our last elections, and the resulting griping, I tend to think that many non-Americans spend a lot of time worrying about what the US is up to. More concerned in fact than they probably are about Russia or China. That makes me tend to look at a lot of the statements made by some as being aimed at the US. I would tend to agree with your assement though that the US's policies probably don't have any great impact on your (or my) daily lives. Hell I live here and whether Bush or Clinton, or Kerry was in office doesn't make that huge of a difference in my daily life. Hopefully it will stay that way....:~ Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Actually, I never thought people bicker about the US all the time until after visiting CP. Most people don't. Look who starts the bickering every time, and perhaps most importantly who says what each time. I come in on these conversations because I am a fool - I hate to see things twisted so badly without the other side being heard (whether that is good, bad or indifferent). Other people seem to come in to counter a secret agenda that just doesn't exist. Watch these threads as they jump from red to grey and then usually back to blue again - the time of day and the content that is voted should give you a reasonable idea of which groups of people, by continent, believe which things. I think you'll be surprised - there are probably a dozen people that actually do any voting. Jeremy Falcon wrote: Being wrong on the definition of "western" doesn't automatically mean I and/or others are wrong on other accounts. I made no mention of your definition of "western" - simply that you believe everything is the US's fault in other people's eyes. That simply isn't the case, but it does make it very hard to approach any problem anywhere else in the world without certain groups of people twisting it into anti-anti-US rhetoric. Believe it or not, sometimes when someone says something they mean just what they say: there are no hidden inferences or secret slogans. :sigh:
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
Most people don't. Look who starts the bickering every time, and perhaps most importantly who says what each time. I come in on these conversations If I call somebody dumb several times and after having it repeated that person starts bickering, who do you believe is at fault? Watch these threads as they jump from red to grey and then usually back to blue again - the time of day and the content that is voted should give you a reasonable idea of which groups of people, by continent, believe which things. I think you'll be surprised - there are probably a dozen people that actually do any voting. You maybe be right. I'll have to pay more attention to that. I made no mention of your definition of "western" - simply that you believe everything is the US's fault in other people's eyes. That simply isn't the case, but it does make it very hard to approach any problem anywhere else in the world without certain groups of people twisting it into anti-anti-US rhetoric. Well, I don't believe the entire world thinks that every action undertaken by anyone in the world is the fault of the US. But, I do believe that people love to complain about the US on CP. And, I draw my conclusions from that. Believe it or not, sometimes when someone says something they mean just what they say: there are no hidden inferences or secret slogans. Well, I choose not to believe it. I believe the mind is more complex than that, and there could be plenty of reasons that bring us to a point to say something. Which means, those words could have many different underlying meanings. Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: That's news to me. Well, I was under the impression that "western" typically meant the continents of North and South America. :~ Where were you during the cold war? -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. I blog too now[^]
Where were you during the cold war? Disneyland. :) Jeremy Falcon
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Being a UN official maybe the guy could speak to Kofi Annan and some of the other UN micreants who embezzled money from the Oil for Food program and pass a few bucks to these poor folks....... Just a thought <edit> In all fairness after looking at this site though, Norway where this guy is from does seem to contribute what seems to be generously based on their population. http://www.norway-un.org/NorwayandtheUN/NorwegianContributions/Norwegian+contributions+to+the+UN.htm[^] </edit> Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: Being a UN official maybe the guy could speak to Kofi Annan and some of the other UN micreants who embezzled money from the Oil for Food program and pass a few bucks to these poor folks....... Just a thought This article offers an alternative perspective from the one you appear to hold. You might find it of interest: http://slate.msn.com/id/2111195/[^] Doug Goulden wrote: In all fairness after looking at this site though, Norway where this guy is from does seem to contribute what seems to be generously based on their population. Indeed. John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
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Not to purposely stir a hornet's nest, but after hearing the rhetoric from many Europeans on the eve of our last elections, and the resulting griping, I tend to think that many non-Americans spend a lot of time worrying about what the US is up to. More concerned in fact than they probably are about Russia or China. That makes me tend to look at a lot of the statements made by some as being aimed at the US. I would tend to agree with your assement though that the US's policies probably don't have any great impact on your (or my) daily lives. Hell I live here and whether Bush or Clinton, or Kerry was in office doesn't make that huge of a difference in my daily life. Hopefully it will stay that way....:~ Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Many Europeans... well, some vocal ones that have a CodeProject membership and, it seems, strong political views of one kind or another. It all comes down to politics in end.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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David Wulff wrote: ...the USA just isn't that important in most people's lives... I've been told on many occassions here in the CP Soapbox by non-Americans (including Brits, Aussies and a certain South African) that the US and the POTUS have a significant affect on their daily lives. I tend to agree with you. I hope you'll jump in and set them straight the next time it arises. ;) [EDIT] Score: 1.0 (1 vote). It's stupid shit like this that makes me wonder why I even bother. :mad: Whomever voted this a one... be an adult and post a reply!!! [/EDIT] "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Whomever voted this a one... be an adult and post a reply!!! Heh, like it really matters. I always find it amusing to see where people have gone back through someones message history page and voted every message a 1. (when it loads that is ;)) There are some sad people around.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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Many Europeans... well, some vocal ones that have a CodeProject membership and, it seems, strong political views of one kind or another. It all comes down to politics in end.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
David Wulff wrote: Many Europeans... well, some vocal ones that have a CodeProject membership and, it seems, strong political views of one kind or another. It all comes down to politics in end A fair and truthful assement I would say. My perspective is skewed I have admit, I see many things that my country has done wrong and needs to deal with, slavery, racism, how we treated the natives to name a few. But on the other hand most nations (and people) have had to deal with these same problems, and not always well. When I see the power that the US has amassed in the form of its economy and its military, I have to believe that we are on the balance pretty good world citizens, clumsy on occasion, but in general we mean well. In history thats something that has been relatively rare IMHO. :rose: Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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Most people don't. Look who starts the bickering every time, and perhaps most importantly who says what each time. I come in on these conversations If I call somebody dumb several times and after having it repeated that person starts bickering, who do you believe is at fault? Watch these threads as they jump from red to grey and then usually back to blue again - the time of day and the content that is voted should give you a reasonable idea of which groups of people, by continent, believe which things. I think you'll be surprised - there are probably a dozen people that actually do any voting. You maybe be right. I'll have to pay more attention to that. I made no mention of your definition of "western" - simply that you believe everything is the US's fault in other people's eyes. That simply isn't the case, but it does make it very hard to approach any problem anywhere else in the world without certain groups of people twisting it into anti-anti-US rhetoric. Well, I don't believe the entire world thinks that every action undertaken by anyone in the world is the fault of the US. But, I do believe that people love to complain about the US on CP. And, I draw my conclusions from that. Believe it or not, sometimes when someone says something they mean just what they say: there are no hidden inferences or secret slogans. Well, I choose not to believe it. I believe the mind is more complex than that, and there could be plenty of reasons that bring us to a point to say something. Which means, those words could have many different underlying meanings. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: If I call somebody dumb several times and after having it repeated that person starts bickering, who do you believe is at fault? A nice try, but that really isn't happening here. Jeremy Falcon wrote: You maybe be right. I'll have to pay more attention to that. I have a lot of time for useless things like that. Jeremy Falcon wrote: But, I do believe that people love to complain about the US on CP. And, I draw my conclusions from that. If you look at these complaints, how many of them are actually saying what you interpret them as? I think we must be browsing different web sites here. The counter-complaints are very real however. :suss: Jeremy Falcon wrote: Well, I choose not to believe it. I believe the mind is more complex than that, and there could be plenty of reasons that bring us to a point to say something. Which means, those words could have many different underlying meanings. If that is your belief then would it not be a good practise to start asking for clarifications of fact before making assumptions? You know, with rose tinted glasses and all.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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David Wulff wrote: Many Europeans... well, some vocal ones that have a CodeProject membership and, it seems, strong political views of one kind or another. It all comes down to politics in end A fair and truthful assement I would say. My perspective is skewed I have admit, I see many things that my country has done wrong and needs to deal with, slavery, racism, how we treated the natives to name a few. But on the other hand most nations (and people) have had to deal with these same problems, and not always well. When I see the power that the US has amassed in the form of its economy and its military, I have to believe that we are on the balance pretty good world citizens, clumsy on occasion, but in general we mean well. In history thats something that has been relatively rare IMHO. :rose: Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
I don't think it is as rare as you say - almost every bad decision through history was based on good intentions for at least one group of people and history is always written by the victor. Other than that though you won't get any argument from me - I've been saying the same thing to closed ears for ever.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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Nice to see the UN performing as effectively as usual. Immediate griping about the US efforts to help. Amazing how they can sit on their hands and wring them at the same time. http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041228%2F0908852820.htm&sc=1152&photoid=20041227DCLJ102[^] Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: Nice to see the UN performing as effectively as usual. Immediate griping about the US efforts to help. Amazing how they can sit on their hands and wring them at the same time. 60,000 people dead, a great many more injured and homeless, and what is the big issue here? The man in charge of organising humanitarian relief tries to goad rich nations (not specifically the US) into making larger contributions. Shame on him. Where is that man's sense of perspective? John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: If I call somebody dumb several times and after having it repeated that person starts bickering, who do you believe is at fault? A nice try, but that really isn't happening here. Jeremy Falcon wrote: You maybe be right. I'll have to pay more attention to that. I have a lot of time for useless things like that. Jeremy Falcon wrote: But, I do believe that people love to complain about the US on CP. And, I draw my conclusions from that. If you look at these complaints, how many of them are actually saying what you interpret them as? I think we must be browsing different web sites here. The counter-complaints are very real however. :suss: Jeremy Falcon wrote: Well, I choose not to believe it. I believe the mind is more complex than that, and there could be plenty of reasons that bring us to a point to say something. Which means, those words could have many different underlying meanings. If that is your belief then would it not be a good practise to start asking for clarifications of fact before making assumptions? You know, with rose tinted glasses and all.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
A nice try, but that really isn't happening here. But it is. People continually insult the US (whether or not you believe it's in my head) and I respond to it. As in this case, it's like the boy who cried wolf, mixed with a lack of understanding about the word "western" in this context. And granted, there could've been other lack of understandings. But, rarely do I have someone come back with a rebuttal that disproves it -- which only fuels the initial assumptions. Also, by admiting the fact of a possibly of fault (regardless of who it may be) begs me to deliver the point that one can logically conclude that even you may be wrong. If you look at these complaints, how many of them are actually saying what you interpret them as? Well, I don't know a ratio, but all things considered most of those complaints are plainly stated. It's kinda difficult (but not impossible) to misunderstand them. If that is your belief then would it not be a good practise to start asking for clarifications of fact before making assumptions? You know, with rose tinted glasses and all. It's just that, most people don't even realize it themselves. Also, some people are just willing to argue without giving deeper thoughts to much thought. Call me lazy, but I don't really want to have to drill a point out of somebody every time. Jeremy Falcon
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A nice try, but that really isn't happening here. But it is. People continually insult the US (whether or not you believe it's in my head) and I respond to it. As in this case, it's like the boy who cried wolf, mixed with a lack of understanding about the word "western" in this context. And granted, there could've been other lack of understandings. But, rarely do I have someone come back with a rebuttal that disproves it -- which only fuels the initial assumptions. Also, by admiting the fact of a possibly of fault (regardless of who it may be) begs me to deliver the point that one can logically conclude that even you may be wrong. If you look at these complaints, how many of them are actually saying what you interpret them as? Well, I don't know a ratio, but all things considered most of those complaints are plainly stated. It's kinda difficult (but not impossible) to misunderstand them. If that is your belief then would it not be a good practise to start asking for clarifications of fact before making assumptions? You know, with rose tinted glasses and all. It's just that, most people don't even realize it themselves. Also, some people are just willing to argue without giving deeper thoughts to much thought. Call me lazy, but I don't really want to have to drill a point out of somebody every time. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: But it is. People continually insult the US (whether or not you believe it's in my head) Yes, I do believe you are finding insults where there are none. It is just that; nothing more. If you respond to a genuine insult then fine, I won't join in, but with the frequency of this sort of thing it comes across very strongly that you are looking for cause to complain rather than wanting to address any legitimate complaints (and yes - there are some here occasionally). It isn't just me that thinks this, more often than not I am introduced to one of these threads by other people IM'ing me and saying "is it just me?" Jeremy Falcon wrote: All things considered most of those complaints are plainly stated. It's kinda difficult (but not impossible) to misunderstand them. And yet this conversation has happened how many times now? And how many more times will it happen again? You say can't be bothered to, but maybe we do need to adopt a system of asking for clarification on all points before inferring things... because right now (as every time before) you are not addressing what I am asking you and I am not getting anything new from you to ask about. It is as if we are having two entirely different conversations. Every reply from either of us should be "Yes, I know" by now. :wtf:
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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We don't give, people complain we're stingy. We do give, people complain about the national debt. What a world we live in. On top of what Powell said, the US has also forgiven more debt than most. What a crazy world we live in. Oh the US is only giving $15 mil. We need money and don't get it -- blame the US. The US has money -- blame the US. Oh, look at the debt of those who can't keep it in check -- blame the US. The list goes on. And, on top of that. Of course, someone voted you a one. It's to be expected though. Jeremy Falcon
Just trying to be pragmatic about the whole thing here, but what if all the figures about who gives what and who writes of what debt are expressed as a percentage of GDP. That way, it becomes clear who is paying their share and who isn't.
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Doug Goulden wrote: Nice to see the UN performing as effectively as usual. Immediate griping about the US efforts to help. Amazing how they can sit on their hands and wring them at the same time. 60,000 people dead, a great many more injured and homeless, and what is the big issue here? The man in charge of organising humanitarian relief tries to goad rich nations (not specifically the US) into making larger contributions. Shame on him. Where is that man's sense of perspective? John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
No one is trying to minimize the scope of this tragedy. It goes off the tragedy scale. But it is counterproductive at best for people to start pointing fingers at the US, or any other country, this early. Plus, it is extrodinarily offensive for there be any suggestion that we Americans are in even the most remote way responsible for any of this. People should concentrate on the tradgey and helping the survivors without using all this death as yet another opportunity to take cheap shots at US politics. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
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No one is trying to minimize the scope of this tragedy. It goes off the tragedy scale. But it is counterproductive at best for people to start pointing fingers at the US, or any other country, this early. Plus, it is extrodinarily offensive for there be any suggestion that we Americans are in even the most remote way responsible for any of this. People should concentrate on the tradgey and helping the survivors without using all this death as yet another opportunity to take cheap shots at US politics. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: People should concentrate on the tradgey and helping the survivors without using all this death as yet another opportunity to take cheap shots at US politics. i agree. and i'd hope that people would try not to use it as a way to take cheap shots at other political bodies, as well (not accusing you, just sayin). there'll be time enough for that, later. Software | Cleek
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No one is trying to minimize the scope of this tragedy. It goes off the tragedy scale. But it is counterproductive at best for people to start pointing fingers at the US, or any other country, this early. Plus, it is extrodinarily offensive for there be any suggestion that we Americans are in even the most remote way responsible for any of this. People should concentrate on the tradgey and helping the survivors without using all this death as yet another opportunity to take cheap shots at US politics. "The Yahoos refused to be tamed."
Stan Shannon wrote: No one is trying to minimize the scope of this tragedy. That is right. In the minds of some people, it is already so minimal that the central issue for them is some imagined slight to US honour. Stan Shannon wrote: But it is counterproductive at best for people to start pointing fingers at the US, or any other country, this early. Plus, it is extrodinarily offensive for there be any suggestion that we Americans are in even the most remote way responsible for any of this. Nothing has been quoted to show that Egeland did single out the US. Stan Shannon wrote: People should concentrate on the tradgey and helping the survivors without using all this death as yet another opportunity to take cheap shots at US politics. As noted, there is no evidence that Egeland took any sort of shot at US politics. As for helping the survivors, the principal way to do that is with aid supplied by donors. So urging more donations is directly on the point. Whether Egeland would have achieved more with greater diplomacy is something that can be argued. Maybe he spoke as he did because he got a little emotional when contemplating the scale of the tragedy, unlike those whose focus never shifts from their central mission of defending the reputation of the US. John Carson Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. Oscar Wilde
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: But it is. People continually insult the US (whether or not you believe it's in my head) Yes, I do believe you are finding insults where there are none. It is just that; nothing more. If you respond to a genuine insult then fine, I won't join in, but with the frequency of this sort of thing it comes across very strongly that you are looking for cause to complain rather than wanting to address any legitimate complaints (and yes - there are some here occasionally). It isn't just me that thinks this, more often than not I am introduced to one of these threads by other people IM'ing me and saying "is it just me?" Jeremy Falcon wrote: All things considered most of those complaints are plainly stated. It's kinda difficult (but not impossible) to misunderstand them. And yet this conversation has happened how many times now? And how many more times will it happen again? You say can't be bothered to, but maybe we do need to adopt a system of asking for clarification on all points before inferring things... because right now (as every time before) you are not addressing what I am asking you and I am not getting anything new from you to ask about. It is as if we are having two entirely different conversations. Every reply from either of us should be "Yes, I know" by now. :wtf:
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
because right now (as every time before) you are not addressing what I am asking you and I am not getting anything new from you to ask about. Well, from what I understand of it, you're saying "Jeremy you could be wrong sometimes." And, I'm saying the same thing; "David you could be wrong sometimes." So, if we agree on that, I'm willing to wager both of our hard heads can come to a succssful conclusion here. :) Jeremy Falcon
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because right now (as every time before) you are not addressing what I am asking you and I am not getting anything new from you to ask about. Well, from what I understand of it, you're saying "Jeremy you could be wrong sometimes." And, I'm saying the same thing; "David you could be wrong sometimes." So, if we agree on that, I'm willing to wager both of our hard heads can come to a succssful conclusion here. :) Jeremy Falcon