Evolution
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This is a three part question 1/ Dinosaurs. Nothing to explain, largely because I don't know why God made them, or why they died out. The Bible is silent on this matter, and I don't really see it as overly important, although I do not deny it is interesting. 2/ Primates. If you mean human ancestors, then I'm sorry, but half a human skull and half a pig jaw do not constitute proof of a link between man and apes. If we're so close to apes, why do we use rats and pigs to do medical tests ? 3/ Prehistoric species. Are you contending that because many species have existed and died out, that others have 'sprung up' to take their place spontaneously or out of lesser animals that existed already ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
We are all entitled to our own beliefs and ideas. Frankly I am in awe of people who have faith because I find it very, nay VERY, difficult simply to believe in something without proof. Most of the time I atually wish I did have faith, life would be simpler. But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Bottom line though, the question of human origin pales in significance to the question of the universes origin... to my understanding of life we should not be here, nothing should be here. Not even nothing should exist. I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school :) ) One thing I do know: Any parent who tells their kids that either religion or evolution is right and the other is wrong needs a fat smack. Kids must make their own choice in the matter. No matter how hard you believe in something not even your kids are valid targets for "ideas down throat" behaviour. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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Oh boy. This is gonna be good :) Evolution always tries to go on in one way or another. It's just random mutations + survival of the fittest. The problem is that we humans have removed the 'survival of the fittest' so that most mutations - both good and bad - stay within the gene pool. We no longer adapt to our climate - we adapt our climate to our tastes; we no longer adapt to food sources, or to inhospitable places, or to darkness, or to anything. Over hundreds or thousands of generations there should be small differences popping up that give one branch of descendants a breeding/survival advantage over others and so they should then become dominant, but that hasn't been happening for tens of thousands of years so essentially evolution has stopped for us. We're it. Scary. There is another theory I've read that says evolution happens in sudden leaps instead of minute steps. Maybe someday there will be a family born with something so amazing that they will start to dominate. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
And just what is wrong with my colour-blind, short sighted, flat footed, pasty skinned genes anyway? X| Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Oh boy. This is gonna be good :) Evolution always tries to go on in one way or another. It's just random mutations + survival of the fittest. The problem is that we humans have removed the 'survival of the fittest' so that most mutations - both good and bad - stay within the gene pool. We no longer adapt to our climate - we adapt our climate to our tastes; we no longer adapt to food sources, or to inhospitable places, or to darkness, or to anything. Over hundreds or thousands of generations there should be small differences popping up that give one branch of descendants a breeding/survival advantage over others and so they should then become dominant, but that hasn't been happening for tens of thousands of years so essentially evolution has stopped for us. We're it. Scary. There is another theory I've read that says evolution happens in sudden leaps instead of minute steps. Maybe someday there will be a family born with something so amazing that they will start to dominate. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
But whats *really* scary is that we are now close to haveing the knowledge to bend evolution itself to our will, to turn our species into what ever we want it to be genetically. We could accelerate our own evolution a million years within a few months. To, in fact, not just play god, but become god. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. Lots of things that don't exist are not mentioned in the Bible. If God did not inspire the writers of the Bible, then He is by definition a waste of time, because He has both not represented Himself to us, and allowed flase representation to be presented. Yes, there's plenty of false representation out there as well, but unless the Bible or SOME source presents His view accurately, He's either not there, or useless. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. I don't think so. In fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past.
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1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, fuck bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. But what's his master plan with the victims of rape and other atrocities that survive. Let them live with all the hate and fuck all they can do to fix it. Kill the perpetraor's and you have sinned, go to jail (gaol) and actually don't fix anything anyway. I know I am explaining the colour blue to the blind man. So think this rant will be my first and last religious post. I spent the first 10 years of my life believing in God. Went to Church and Sunday School, read the Bible (3 different versions) before the end of Primary school (12 years old). At the age of 9 I was sexually assaulted. Fucked me up, still all twisted. So earlier references are not blind rant for the arguement. Again, What is God's master plan for people like me? When do I get to feel all warm and gooey with the Father figure to look after me? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. I guess largely because the Bible is not a book of natural history, but a record of God's dealings with man. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). I was thinking of a specific example. I have no problem with the possibility of human like animals living a long time ago, just the arrestion that there is a steady stream of change. I don't regard the Bible as inconsistent, although I admit books like Revelation are deliberately written so only people who have read OT prophecy and understand the meaning of the symbolism can understand it. Was this not so, the author (John) would have been killed for writing it. And the big difference between Nostro and the Bible is that scripture is consistent in it's imagery, it uses the same terms to refer to the same events/places, etc. This makes it far more accountable for it's claims. Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? I'd admit that I would agree that is probably part of the reason, they look humanish. But unless we were also very similar to rats & pigs, why would they do it at all ? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- Interesting question, I will ponder it when proof of aliens arrives. God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, f*** bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. Not so, actually as I have often said here when the topic comes up, God is still working, but He doeals with people on an individual rather than national basis, and so proof has also become to the individual rather than the nation, and the smiting has been put on hold to give people a c
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1/ Considering they spent hundreds of millions of years on Earth compared to our few thousand, I have always wondered why they don't rate a mention. 2/ The skeletons look a little more complete than half a human skull and half a pig jaw to me. Though I can see the need to muddy the waters with the Bible being so Nostradamus like in it's inconsistencies and esoteric language (from multiple translations). Wouldn't it be against some ideal to be butchering our brethren in scientific tests. Unlike like vermin like rats and unclean animals like pigs? 3/ No, but what's God doing killing off his beautifully hand crafted animals? If he built them they must be perfect no need for improvement. --- Is SETI a waste of time? Alien's can't exist. God made Heaven and Earth and then populated it with people made in his own image. If he made other people on other planets why isn't it in the Bible? If Alien's exist and don't look like us, is that a proof that God can't exist? --- God was proactive in the Old Testament, pillars of salt and smiting abound. Now he's gone all passive, fuck bad people up real good and proper when the day of reckoning comes and all. But what's his master plan with the victims of rape and other atrocities that survive. Let them live with all the hate and fuck all they can do to fix it. Kill the perpetraor's and you have sinned, go to jail (gaol) and actually don't fix anything anyway. I know I am explaining the colour blue to the blind man. So think this rant will be my first and last religious post. I spent the first 10 years of my life believing in God. Went to Church and Sunday School, read the Bible (3 different versions) before the end of Primary school (12 years old). At the age of 9 I was sexually assaulted. Fucked me up, still all twisted. So earlier references are not blind rant for the arguement. Again, What is God's master plan for people like me? When do I get to feel all warm and gooey with the Father figure to look after me? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Faith is for the fortunate or the blind, IMHO. The rest of us have to struggle with these questions, with our lives. It is a fruitless struggle and I say don't look outwards for your answers but look inwards. I don't believe I will ever find peace, but I have found something better through the challenging of life and also, sounds corny, through love. (arrogant, inflaming opinion warning) People with faith either truly have an understanding which cannot be conveyed with mortal tongue OR they are blind to their own deception and, not being able to cope with a world of questions, blindly believe. I believe a lot of people suffer from the later. In moments of weakness I wish I had faith, then I remember all the things I would have missed in life had I had faith, and am glad I am an heretic :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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We are all entitled to our own beliefs and ideas. Frankly I am in awe of people who have faith because I find it very, nay VERY, difficult simply to believe in something without proof. Most of the time I atually wish I did have faith, life would be simpler. But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Bottom line though, the question of human origin pales in significance to the question of the universes origin... to my understanding of life we should not be here, nothing should be here. Not even nothing should exist. I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school :) ) One thing I do know: Any parent who tells their kids that either religion or evolution is right and the other is wrong needs a fat smack. Kids must make their own choice in the matter. No matter how hard you believe in something not even your kids are valid targets for "ideas down throat" behaviour. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? God had a very dodgy vindaloo the night before. :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Lol! There was a UK ad campaign featuring "the Norm" a little while back. I hope you're not like him - he was a little grey and boring; not very flattering at all... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
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Faith is for the fortunate or the blind, IMHO. The rest of us have to struggle with these questions, with our lives. It is a fruitless struggle and I say don't look outwards for your answers but look inwards. I don't believe I will ever find peace, but I have found something better through the challenging of life and also, sounds corny, through love. (arrogant, inflaming opinion warning) People with faith either truly have an understanding which cannot be conveyed with mortal tongue OR they are blind to their own deception and, not being able to cope with a world of questions, blindly believe. I believe a lot of people suffer from the later. In moments of weakness I wish I had faith, then I remember all the things I would have missed in life had I had faith, and am glad I am an heretic :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
Faith is for the fortunate or the blind, IMHO. Faith in the Bible is not blind, but based on experience. The rest of us have to struggle with these questions, with our lives. It is a fruitless struggle and I say don't look outwards for your answers but look inwards. I don't believe I will ever find peace, but I have found something better through the challenging of life and also, sounds corny, through love. (arrogant, inflaming opinion warning) People with faith either truly have an understanding which cannot be conveyed with mortal tongue OR they are blind to their own deception and, not being able to cope with a world of questions, blindly believe. I believe a lot of people suffer from the later. I can't disagree - a lot of people blindly place faith in ideas that have no proof to back them up. Lucky for me the Bible does not require this of me. In moments of weakness I wish I had faith, then I remember all the things I would have missed in life had I had faith, and am glad I am an heretic Blind faith is about as valuable as believing in the Great Pumpkin, it is a nice idea that can bring no lasting peace. That is not what I am on about, though. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. Lots of things that don't exist are not mentioned in the Bible. If God did not inspire the writers of the Bible, then He is by definition a waste of time, because He has both not represented Himself to us, and allowed flase representation to be presented. Yes, there's plenty of false representation out there as well, but unless the Bible or SOME source presents His view accurately, He's either not there, or useless. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
He's either not there, or useless I don't agree with that. I am not a Christian, I don’t believe in heaven and hell, but I do believe in God. But not as you might. I believe the entity that people call “GOD” is that little voice in your head that you can use to seek comfort with. Well not just a voice, but the goodness. It’s a very difficult thing to put into words. Maybe that’s why olden people took the easy route and moved the God out of the individual and made it into a collective God. Think about it, it’s the first place everybody turns for help, and it’s the source of all things good – and bad – about ourselves. That is what the concept of God is to me. Not some old man flying round in a far off nebula with a crystal ball. There is more truth behind this reasoning than you may think at first. God is inside each of us, and thus everywhere we go, God brings out the good in us, God helps us thought hard times, and God listens to our prayers. I can understand how long ago people would have taken this and made it into a separate entity, together with visions of [insert vision here], etc. People as individuals need to have a God to help them through their lives, however you interpret it.
:cool: -=:suss:=-
David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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I don't have enough faith to believe in evolution, so I can't comment... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Dammit, whadidya have to make a comment like that for? It doesn't take faith to think evolution might explain where we came from. There's plenty of evidence to support evolution. All you gotta do is look around to see its effects. Anyways, I dont have enough faith to believe in God. I think early humans came up with the concept of God in order to create civilization out of a population of ignorant, warlike barbarians. There's been many flavors of God over time(christian, catholic, muslim), all designed to guide the masses into doing the "right" thing. But hey it's better than killing eachother. Well, the sky's rumbling so I'll shut up now. Otherwise I'll be dodging lightning bolts all day... Josh josh@that-guy.net
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. I don't think so. In fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past.
It won't happen over night, but it will happen. ;P From a shampoo commercial here in Australia. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? How do you explain 'platipus' ? A proof that god not only exist but also has a sence of humor, thus high inteligence. If you ask me, i don't believe in the existence of 'platipus'. I am to old to change my believes. :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
A proof that god not only exist but also has a sence of humor LOL. I'll remember that.
:cool: -=:suss:=-
David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. I don't think so. In fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past.
I wasn't just thinking of Genesis 1, but even then, things were created, which is the opposite of evolving. On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past. My point exactly. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Yep! that friggin' Twix advert. It took me ages to claw back my credibility. I should sue Rowntree's. :( Norm Almond Chief Technical Architect FS Walker Hughes Limited
It took me ages to claw back my credibility. You have/had credibility? :confused: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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He's either not there, or useless I don't agree with that. I am not a Christian, I don’t believe in heaven and hell, but I do believe in God. But not as you might. I believe the entity that people call “GOD” is that little voice in your head that you can use to seek comfort with. Well not just a voice, but the goodness. It’s a very difficult thing to put into words. Maybe that’s why olden people took the easy route and moved the God out of the individual and made it into a collective God. Think about it, it’s the first place everybody turns for help, and it’s the source of all things good – and bad – about ourselves. That is what the concept of God is to me. Not some old man flying round in a far off nebula with a crystal ball. There is more truth behind this reasoning than you may think at first. God is inside each of us, and thus everywhere we go, God brings out the good in us, God helps us thought hard times, and God listens to our prayers. I can understand how long ago people would have taken this and made it into a separate entity, together with visions of [insert vision here], etc. People as individuals need to have a God to help them through their lives, however you interpret it.
:cool: -=:suss:=-
David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
You're talking about our conscience, an understanding that there is more to life than doing what we want regardless of others. From your POV, God may as *well* not exist because your reality of God is to every person whatever they want it to be. What you're saying is not far removed from who God is, but in the absence of any communication from Him, I would continue to maintain that it all ends up coming down to what seems right to the individual, which means either God is confused, or every concept of God is right because it's just a label we give to our humanity and has nothing real behind it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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FYI I'm a Christian too and I don't have any conflict between Faith and Cosmology/Evolution, though I understand how those who do arrive at that conclusion. Does that mean you believe the Bible is wrong, or God is confused ? Feel free not to reply if you don't want to get worms all over your keyboard ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
> Does that mean you believe the Bible is wrong, or God is confused? God as an entity doesn't exist. The bible may be "history", but we all know that history is nothing but half-truths and outright lies glossed over with a thin film of conjecture, and propped up by a series of probabilities and human interpretation, pre-ackaged and propogated as fact to young minds who further re-evaluate and re-interprate to fit their own circumstances and observations. Yeah, that sounds like something on which I'd want to base *my* life. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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Power for what? to evolve, or to push your ideas down everyone else's throat? :) Push my ideas down everyone's throat. A long long time ago in a thread far far away (No. I won't get a link). I made reference to being infinitely qualified to be Supreme Leader of the World. This was due to my power to Look at a man and instantly tell whether he should live or die. If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? I know I should be. Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we ? ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Dammit, whadidya have to make a comment like that for? It doesn't take faith to think evolution might explain where we came from. There's plenty of evidence to support evolution. All you gotta do is look around to see its effects. Anyways, I dont have enough faith to believe in God. I think early humans came up with the concept of God in order to create civilization out of a population of ignorant, warlike barbarians. There's been many flavors of God over time(christian, catholic, muslim), all designed to guide the masses into doing the "right" thing. But hey it's better than killing eachother. Well, the sky's rumbling so I'll shut up now. Otherwise I'll be dodging lightning bolts all day... Josh josh@that-guy.net
Organized religion was created to keep the general populace in line and obedient. When you say "flavors of god", I immediately envision a cosmic ice cream shop with 31 flavors of god on the menu. :) To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? I know I should be. Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we ? ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
