Evolution
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. Lots of things that don't exist are not mentioned in the Bible. If God did not inspire the writers of the Bible, then He is by definition a waste of time, because He has both not represented Himself to us, and allowed flase representation to be presented. Yes, there's plenty of false representation out there as well, but unless the Bible or SOME source presents His view accurately, He's either not there, or useless. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
He's either not there, or useless I don't agree with that. I am not a Christian, I don’t believe in heaven and hell, but I do believe in God. But not as you might. I believe the entity that people call “GOD” is that little voice in your head that you can use to seek comfort with. Well not just a voice, but the goodness. It’s a very difficult thing to put into words. Maybe that’s why olden people took the easy route and moved the God out of the individual and made it into a collective God. Think about it, it’s the first place everybody turns for help, and it’s the source of all things good – and bad – about ourselves. That is what the concept of God is to me. Not some old man flying round in a far off nebula with a crystal ball. There is more truth behind this reasoning than you may think at first. God is inside each of us, and thus everywhere we go, God brings out the good in us, God helps us thought hard times, and God listens to our prayers. I can understand how long ago people would have taken this and made it into a separate entity, together with visions of [insert vision here], etc. People as individuals need to have a God to help them through their lives, however you interpret it.
:cool: -=:suss:=-
David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. I don't think so. In fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past.
It won't happen over night, but it will happen. ;P From a shampoo commercial here in Australia. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I don't have enough faith to believe in evolution, so I can't comment... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Dammit, whadidya have to make a comment like that for? It doesn't take faith to think evolution might explain where we came from. There's plenty of evidence to support evolution. All you gotta do is look around to see its effects. Anyways, I dont have enough faith to believe in God. I think early humans came up with the concept of God in order to create civilization out of a population of ignorant, warlike barbarians. There's been many flavors of God over time(christian, catholic, muslim), all designed to guide the masses into doing the "right" thing. But hey it's better than killing eachother. Well, the sky's rumbling so I'll shut up now. Otherwise I'll be dodging lightning bolts all day... Josh josh@that-guy.net
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How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? How do you explain 'platipus' ? A proof that god not only exist but also has a sence of humor, thus high inteligence. If you ask me, i don't believe in the existence of 'platipus'. I am to old to change my believes. :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
A proof that god not only exist but also has a sence of humor LOL. I'll remember that.
:cool: -=:suss:=-
David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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No, the Bible makes several statements that do NOT allow for evolution. I don't think so. In fact if you read deeply into the Bible's description of the world's creation (Genesis) it does look like an evolutionary process. It wasn't like: "And the God snapped his fingers and all the stuff was right there, new and shiny". According to Bible it took the whole "week" to create and it took few steps all together. Nothing happened "just like that". On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past.
I wasn't just thinking of Genesis 1, but even then, things were created, which is the opposite of evolving. On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past. My point exactly. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Yep! that friggin' Twix advert. It took me ages to claw back my credibility. I should sue Rowntree's. :( Norm Almond Chief Technical Architect FS Walker Hughes Limited
It took me ages to claw back my credibility. You have/had credibility? :confused: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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He's either not there, or useless I don't agree with that. I am not a Christian, I don’t believe in heaven and hell, but I do believe in God. But not as you might. I believe the entity that people call “GOD” is that little voice in your head that you can use to seek comfort with. Well not just a voice, but the goodness. It’s a very difficult thing to put into words. Maybe that’s why olden people took the easy route and moved the God out of the individual and made it into a collective God. Think about it, it’s the first place everybody turns for help, and it’s the source of all things good – and bad – about ourselves. That is what the concept of God is to me. Not some old man flying round in a far off nebula with a crystal ball. There is more truth behind this reasoning than you may think at first. God is inside each of us, and thus everywhere we go, God brings out the good in us, God helps us thought hard times, and God listens to our prayers. I can understand how long ago people would have taken this and made it into a separate entity, together with visions of [insert vision here], etc. People as individuals need to have a God to help them through their lives, however you interpret it.
:cool: -=:suss:=-
David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
You're talking about our conscience, an understanding that there is more to life than doing what we want regardless of others. From your POV, God may as *well* not exist because your reality of God is to every person whatever they want it to be. What you're saying is not far removed from who God is, but in the absence of any communication from Him, I would continue to maintain that it all ends up coming down to what seems right to the individual, which means either God is confused, or every concept of God is right because it's just a label we give to our humanity and has nothing real behind it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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FYI I'm a Christian too and I don't have any conflict between Faith and Cosmology/Evolution, though I understand how those who do arrive at that conclusion. Does that mean you believe the Bible is wrong, or God is confused ? Feel free not to reply if you don't want to get worms all over your keyboard ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
> Does that mean you believe the Bible is wrong, or God is confused? God as an entity doesn't exist. The bible may be "history", but we all know that history is nothing but half-truths and outright lies glossed over with a thin film of conjecture, and propped up by a series of probabilities and human interpretation, pre-ackaged and propogated as fact to young minds who further re-evaluate and re-interprate to fit their own circumstances and observations. Yeah, that sounds like something on which I'd want to base *my* life. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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Power for what? to evolve, or to push your ideas down everyone else's throat? :) Push my ideas down everyone's throat. A long long time ago in a thread far far away (No. I won't get a link). I made reference to being infinitely qualified to be Supreme Leader of the World. This was due to my power to Look at a man and instantly tell whether he should live or die. If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? I know I should be. Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we ? ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Dammit, whadidya have to make a comment like that for? It doesn't take faith to think evolution might explain where we came from. There's plenty of evidence to support evolution. All you gotta do is look around to see its effects. Anyways, I dont have enough faith to believe in God. I think early humans came up with the concept of God in order to create civilization out of a population of ignorant, warlike barbarians. There's been many flavors of God over time(christian, catholic, muslim), all designed to guide the masses into doing the "right" thing. But hey it's better than killing eachother. Well, the sky's rumbling so I'll shut up now. Otherwise I'll be dodging lightning bolts all day... Josh josh@that-guy.net
Organized religion was created to keep the general populace in line and obedient. When you say "flavors of god", I immediately envision a cosmic ice cream shop with 31 flavors of god on the menu. :) To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? I know I should be. Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we ? ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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But whats *really* scary is that we are now close to haveing the knowledge to bend evolution itself to our will, to turn our species into what ever we want it to be genetically. We could accelerate our own evolution a million years within a few months. To, in fact, not just play god, but become god. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.
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Oh boy. This is gonna be good :) Evolution always tries to go on in one way or another. It's just random mutations + survival of the fittest. The problem is that we humans have removed the 'survival of the fittest' so that most mutations - both good and bad - stay within the gene pool. We no longer adapt to our climate - we adapt our climate to our tastes; we no longer adapt to food sources, or to inhospitable places, or to darkness, or to anything. Over hundreds or thousands of generations there should be small differences popping up that give one branch of descendants a breeding/survival advantage over others and so they should then become dominant, but that hasn't been happening for tens of thousands of years so essentially evolution has stopped for us. We're it. Scary. There is another theory I've read that says evolution happens in sudden leaps instead of minute steps. Maybe someday there will be a family born with something so amazing that they will start to dominate. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
I agree that to a large degree we have changed evolution by adjusting our environment to our needs rather than breeding to meet the environments requirements. But I doubt evolution has actually stopped. For one we are adapting to our own man made environments, like cities and underground tube networks. Certainly middle-ages man is not a perfect being for a city and so we are evolving away from that to better fit into our cities. The problem is that evolution takes tens of thousands of years, not the puny thousands that we have been around. So we will not notice any changes, but just because there are no noticeable changes does not mean it has stopped, right? I do not really know enough about evolution to base this on much though. On another point, maybe what is really "evolving" is our culture and knowledge. Maybe these evolutionary paths have overtaken the physical paths and become the more important ones. Sure this is not evolution as we know it but certainly and important aspect of it. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? Well thanks to our culture certain genes, such as blonde hair, fair skin, athletic ability, "brain capacity" and all the other things that "the beautiful people" have are certainly traits that are favoured, traits that are more likely amongst 6billion to survive. All in all we need a good many, many more years before we can see whether evolution is really changing us. By that time though our technology will be crafting us into whatever the currently accepted flavour is. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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I wasn't just thinking of Genesis 1, but even then, things were created, which is the opposite of evolving. On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past. My point exactly. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I wasn't just thinking of Genesis 1, but even then, things were created, which is the opposite of evolving. I am not following your logic here. Why would creation, specially as the one described in the Bible, be oposite of evolving? I would dare to say that Bible is kind of attempting to describe the evolution in the way. My point exactly. Which part precisely is your point? religious souls don't quite understand how the science works? or: Such a comparison doesn't make sense? or: Evolution is just a tool?
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If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? I know I should be. Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we ? ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P You bastard, it's people like you, David Wulff and Rogers Smith that will force me into my own thread. It will be several hundred posts long and involve me and only me arguing with myself. And probably losing. :laugh: Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we? ;P Yeah, we're looking after the curtains up here. What with real proper sunlight and all. ;) Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Yep! that friggin' Twix advert. It took me ages to claw back my credibility. I should sue Rowntree's. :( Norm Almond Chief Technical Architect FS Walker Hughes Limited
Lol. Go Norm GO! :laugh: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
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> BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? Geeze, who died and made *you* God? LOLOL To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Actually he's referring to the fact it's 11:00 pm here in Sydney and Midnight in Hobart when he made the post. :) Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P You bastard, it's people like you, David Wulff and Rogers Smith that will force me into my own thread. It will be several hundred posts long and involve me and only me arguing with myself. And probably losing. :laugh: Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we? ;P Yeah, we're looking after the curtains up here. What with real proper sunlight and all. ;) Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Yeah, we're looking after the curtains up here. What with real proper sunlight and all. I gotta hand it to you - that's an pretty good comeback... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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> To, in fact, not just play god, but become god. At that point, I will glad to welcome the rest of humanity to my already god-like presence. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
At that point, I will glad to welcome the rest of humanity to my already god-like presence. Well God, I feel obliged to alert you to the fact your homepage has been hacked. They have inserted a picture of some dorky bloke in a cowboy hat. not very Godlike at all. :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Faith is for the fortunate or the blind, IMHO. Faith in the Bible is not blind, but based on experience. The rest of us have to struggle with these questions, with our lives. It is a fruitless struggle and I say don't look outwards for your answers but look inwards. I don't believe I will ever find peace, but I have found something better through the challenging of life and also, sounds corny, through love. (arrogant, inflaming opinion warning) People with faith either truly have an understanding which cannot be conveyed with mortal tongue OR they are blind to their own deception and, not being able to cope with a world of questions, blindly believe. I believe a lot of people suffer from the later. I can't disagree - a lot of people blindly place faith in ideas that have no proof to back them up. Lucky for me the Bible does not require this of me. In moments of weakness I wish I had faith, then I remember all the things I would have missed in life had I had faith, and am glad I am an heretic Blind faith is about as valuable as believing in the Great Pumpkin, it is a nice idea that can bring no lasting peace. That is not what I am on about, though. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I am not saying that I wish I had blind faith. Sometimes, but only in moments of weakness, I wish I had your kind of faith. A faith which to you is true through various reasons (proof, experience etc.) I am happy for you that you have found or experienced proof sufficient for faith to be generated in you, just as I hope you are happy that I am not of faith through my own reasons and experiences (or lack of them). LOL, this sounds strange but; Show me proof that Linux is better for me than Windows and I will change. Show me proof that the Bible is true and I will change. Till that day I use Windows, till that day I have no faith :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
