C++ Relegated to Systems-Level Programming?
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"We expect 60 percent or more Visual C++ developers to migrate to C# over the next 48 months. ... C++ is still going to be used. It's certainly going to be used in the COM and COM+ area...but it will be relegated to a systems-level programming language." - Mark Driver Gartner Group Inc. (.NET Magazine Fall/Winter 2001) Does anyone have any thoughtful comments? Rich
48 months is a long time. That doesn't sound to unreasonable assuming C# does what those 60% of developers need. It remains to be seen if C# .NET will run reliably on all Windows systems.
Todd Smith
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"We expect 60 percent or more Visual C++ developers to migrate to C# over the next 48 months. ... C++ is still going to be used. It's certainly going to be used in the COM and COM+ area...but it will be relegated to a systems-level programming language." - Mark Driver Gartner Group Inc. (.NET Magazine Fall/Winter 2001) Does anyone have any thoughtful comments? Rich
To quote several people here 'No, Christian, M$ is not trying to kill C++, they want to give us another option for *insert lame reason here*'. I rest my case. M$ are betting the farm on killing cross platform development and creating a world where the standards they follow are all their own, seeing as they remain the WORST C++ implimentation in the WORLD, except maybe the one written by a 12 year old girl, sadly it's wrapped in the nicest IDE in the world. No surprises there, M$ are much better at glitz than content, always will be. XP still rules though ;P Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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To quote several people here 'No, Christian, M$ is not trying to kill C++, they want to give us another option for *insert lame reason here*'. I rest my case. M$ are betting the farm on killing cross platform development and creating a world where the standards they follow are all their own, seeing as they remain the WORST C++ implimentation in the WORLD, except maybe the one written by a 12 year old girl, sadly it's wrapped in the nicest IDE in the world. No surprises there, M$ are much better at glitz than content, always will be. XP still rules though ;P Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Don't worry Christian. Isn't it the developers who *mainly* drive a product/language? and not necessarily the marketing folks? // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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Don't worry Christian. Isn't it the developers who *mainly* drive a product/language? and not necessarily the marketing folks? // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
It's ultimately up to us to decide if we want to support a world *owned* by Microsoft, or by a joint committee. From what I see, many are going the M$ way, and they obviously expect it. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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It's ultimately up to us to decide if we want to support a world *owned* by Microsoft, or by a joint committee. From what I see, many are going the M$ way, and they obviously expect it. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
It's ultimately up to us to decide if we want to support a world *owned* by Microsoft, or by a joint committee. Well, call me old fashioned, but we go where the customer wants/needs us to go. We provide just one app amongst many, so we cannotdictate to the user that they must install ".NET", or that they must install a JVM capable of running Java 2, etc. Ultimately, support for these things is a self-forfulling prophecy - if people watn apps that need .NET it will be widely installed, if it's widely installed people want apps that use use it. I'll support the 'winner', whoever that might be... ----------------------------- The sermon on the mount... Man 1 : Hear that? Blessed are the greek. Man 2 : The greek? Man 1 : Well apparently, he's going to inherit the earth. Man 2 : Did anyone catch his name? ----------------------------- "Happy pooja to all curry munchers!" - Paul Watson Oct 25, 2001
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"We expect 60 percent or more Visual C++ developers to migrate to C# over the next 48 months. ... C++ is still going to be used. It's certainly going to be used in the COM and COM+ area...but it will be relegated to a systems-level programming language." - Mark Driver Gartner Group Inc. (.NET Magazine Fall/Winter 2001) Does anyone have any thoughtful comments? Rich
Ah - the Gartner group. The same guys who said 'ditch IIS and run to Open Source because no one is making virii for Open Source.' Yet. I would be interested to see them quote the number of C++ users who don't develop on Windows boxes. Is it less than or greater than 40%? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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It's ultimately up to us to decide if we want to support a world *owned* by Microsoft, or by a joint committee. Well, call me old fashioned, but we go where the customer wants/needs us to go. We provide just one app amongst many, so we cannotdictate to the user that they must install ".NET", or that they must install a JVM capable of running Java 2, etc. Ultimately, support for these things is a self-forfulling prophecy - if people watn apps that need .NET it will be widely installed, if it's widely installed people want apps that use use it. I'll support the 'winner', whoever that might be... ----------------------------- The sermon on the mount... Man 1 : Hear that? Blessed are the greek. Man 2 : The greek? Man 1 : Well apparently, he's going to inherit the earth. Man 2 : Did anyone catch his name? ----------------------------- "Happy pooja to all curry munchers!" - Paul Watson Oct 25, 2001
It depends on how a company defines its own future technology directions. In most cases, especially in the corporate world, the management depends heavily on experienced developers for initial recommendations on new technologies. The problem is: they are also susceptible to become the prey of software marketing folks, majority of whom are no better than snake oil sellers. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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"We expect 60 percent or more Visual C++ developers to migrate to C# over the next 48 months. ... C++ is still going to be used. It's certainly going to be used in the COM and COM+ area...but it will be relegated to a systems-level programming language." - Mark Driver Gartner Group Inc. (.NET Magazine Fall/Winter 2001) Does anyone have any thoughtful comments? Rich
System programming? We are not talking about device drivers here... _speed will always matter_ - I still can´t imagine a _KILLER_ application where performance doesn´t count. And "unmanaged" c++ will be fastest. I mean that´s one reason I hate Java clients .. Just imagine if Photoshop or Illustrator would be 20%-40% (just guessing) slower than other C++ (or Delphi) programmed software?? People would just get a slower product. Why should people settle for that? Standard development jobs will be done in C# where performance is not the primary thing. And that´s for sure. And I hope youth will still pick up C++ in favor of C# oder J#. C++ just doesn´t get enough hype.. MS really tried to push Visual Basic on us. (I don´t have anything against VB, it´s just not my language). And now they are pushing C# (among others), I think it is a far better thing than pushing VB only. But it can´t touch C++. Things might look different as soon that .NET CLR thing is implemented at a hardware level.. :eek:
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"We expect 60 percent or more Visual C++ developers to migrate to C# over the next 48 months. ... C++ is still going to be used. It's certainly going to be used in the COM and COM+ area...but it will be relegated to a systems-level programming language." - Mark Driver Gartner Group Inc. (.NET Magazine Fall/Winter 2001) Does anyone have any thoughtful comments? Rich
In *my* opinion (as if it matters much :-P ) it's C# that will be relegated into systems programming, that is if you define doing systems programming as writing web services. Web Services seems to me to be pretty much the only thing that C# is good for. For conventional applications C++ will still be the way to go, no question. Sincerely Yours, Brian Hart "And that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are above-average." - Garrison Keillor
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It depends on how a company defines its own future technology directions. In most cases, especially in the corporate world, the management depends heavily on experienced developers for initial recommendations on new technologies. The problem is: they are also susceptible to become the prey of software marketing folks, majority of whom are no better than snake oil sellers. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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To quote several people here 'No, Christian, M$ is not trying to kill C++, they want to give us another option for *insert lame reason here*'. I rest my case. M$ are betting the farm on killing cross platform development and creating a world where the standards they follow are all their own, seeing as they remain the WORST C++ implimentation in the WORLD, except maybe the one written by a 12 year old girl, sadly it's wrapped in the nicest IDE in the world. No surprises there, M$ are much better at glitz than content, always will be. XP still rules though ;P Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Actually, MS has re-committed themselves to C++ in many ways. For instance, they just hired Stanley Lippman to head up the VC team. He is a C++ pioneer, and worked with Bjarne on cfront 2.1 and 3.0. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Actually, MS has re-committed themselves to C++ in many ways. For instance, they just hired Stanley Lippman to head up the VC team. He is a C++ pioneer, and worked with Bjarne on cfront 2.1 and 3.0. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
And who also recently wrote a book on C#. I guarentee you Bjarne won't be writing anything on or in C#, in other words the fact that he met/bumped in to/worked with Bjarne in the past does not mean they are in the same league. This whole thing reeks to me of window dressing - if M$ had ANY commitment to C++, they would put more than token effort into standards conformance. Time will tell if Stanley's role is window dressing or not, but even with the best intentions, does he have the *power* to push M$ towards a real commitment to C++ ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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And who also recently wrote a book on C#. I guarentee you Bjarne won't be writing anything on or in C#, in other words the fact that he met/bumped in to/worked with Bjarne in the past does not mean they are in the same league. This whole thing reeks to me of window dressing - if M$ had ANY commitment to C++, they would put more than token effort into standards conformance. Time will tell if Stanley's role is window dressing or not, but even with the best intentions, does he have the *power* to push M$ towards a real commitment to C++ ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Just because he also likes C# doesn't mean he's not a very solid C++ guy. He didn't just "bump into" or "worked with" Bjarne, he *LED* the cfront group for the last two releases. It was his baby. I doubt very much if he would allow it to not support standards for much longer. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Just because he also likes C# doesn't mean he's not a very solid C++ guy. He didn't just "bump into" or "worked with" Bjarne, he *LED* the cfront group for the last two releases. It was his baby. I doubt very much if he would allow it to not support standards for much longer. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Given that cfront is not standards compliant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. In fact, a friend of mine has spoken to Bjarne about cfront and Bjarne told him he would be mad to use it for this exact reason - it does not conform to the standard. The standard is available online, I doubt thet actually *need* this guy to tell them how to read it, if that is all they want. It is obvious that his employment is at least in part because of his name, not what he will do. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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"We expect 60 percent or more Visual C++ developers to migrate to C# over the next 48 months. ... C++ is still going to be used. It's certainly going to be used in the COM and COM+ area...but it will be relegated to a systems-level programming language." - Mark Driver Gartner Group Inc. (.NET Magazine Fall/Winter 2001) Does anyone have any thoughtful comments? Rich
the guy's an idiot. my shop has millions of lines of C++ code that's not going to magically rewrite itself in C# just because Bill wants more developer mind-share. i'll be doing C++ for a long time. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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System programming? We are not talking about device drivers here... _speed will always matter_ - I still can´t imagine a _KILLER_ application where performance doesn´t count. And "unmanaged" c++ will be fastest. I mean that´s one reason I hate Java clients .. Just imagine if Photoshop or Illustrator would be 20%-40% (just guessing) slower than other C++ (or Delphi) programmed software?? People would just get a slower product. Why should people settle for that? Standard development jobs will be done in C# where performance is not the primary thing. And that´s for sure. And I hope youth will still pick up C++ in favor of C# oder J#. C++ just doesn´t get enough hype.. MS really tried to push Visual Basic on us. (I don´t have anything against VB, it´s just not my language). And now they are pushing C# (among others), I think it is a far better thing than pushing VB only. But it can´t touch C++. Things might look different as soon that .NET CLR thing is implemented at a hardware level.. :eek:
With hardware getting faster and faster these days, the speed that your code executes at isn’t a major factor in whether your applications gain wide spread use. If your application is reasonably fast for its role, most (say, 80%) of your users won’t be too concerned about the slower parts of your application. Users care about the results that an application provides - most don’t care about how fast your code is. As a result, most marketing people won’t include a bullet in a marketing brochure about an application that says something like, “Written in C++ - the world’s fastest programming language!”. I think Microsoft is taking a results oriented approach - give developers an easy way to produce applications on our platforms and the users will follow. The .NET Framework does just that and C# is one of the many ways of getting at that functionality. I think C++ will be around for a long time, but its primary role will be to create infrastructure-related products and services - the place where speed *does* matter since all other applications rely on the infrastructure. I’m a C++ developer myself, so it I’m disappointed about seeing C++ loose steam in the overall marketplace. Essam __________________________________________________ Author - JScript .NET Programming - Now Available! http://www.designs2solutions.com/jsnetprg
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Given that cfront is not standards compliant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. In fact, a friend of mine has spoken to Bjarne about cfront and Bjarne told him he would be mad to use it for this exact reason - it does not conform to the standard. The standard is available online, I doubt thet actually *need* this guy to tell them how to read it, if that is all they want. It is obvious that his employment is at least in part because of his name, not what he will do. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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He'll end up being another talking head for Microsoft. "...the staggering layers of obcenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Given that cfront is not standards compliant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. In fact, a friend of mine has spoken to Bjarne about cfront and Bjarne told him he would be mad to use it for this exact reason - it does not conform to the standard. The standard is available online, I doubt thet actually *need* this guy to tell them how to read it, if that is all they want. It is obvious that his employment is at least in part because of his name, not what he will do. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Uhh.. Dude. cfront 3 was released in 1991! That's several years before they even *BEGAN* working on a C++ standard. You think it's fair to criticize Lippman for not following a standard that hadn't even been started yet? No, MS doesn't need anyone to tell them how to read the C++ standard (though it's not quite as easy to read as you might think, there are contradictory places that require knowledge of the intent of the authors to understand what they're saying). But having someone that is very pro-standard C++ leading the team means that standards will have a good champion. You may not believe that he'll be such a champion... fine. But what other purpose is there in hiring such a seasoned C++ veteran to head up the team otherwise? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Uhh.. Dude. cfront 3 was released in 1991! That's several years before they even *BEGAN* working on a C++ standard. You think it's fair to criticize Lippman for not following a standard that hadn't even been started yet? No, MS doesn't need anyone to tell them how to read the C++ standard (though it's not quite as easy to read as you might think, there are contradictory places that require knowledge of the intent of the authors to understand what they're saying). But having someone that is very pro-standard C++ leading the team means that standards will have a good champion. You may not believe that he'll be such a champion... fine. But what other purpose is there in hiring such a seasoned C++ veteran to head up the team otherwise? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Uhh.. Dude. Hey, cool. I thought I was too old to be called 'dude' ;) cfront 3 was released in 1991! That's several years before they even *BEGAN* working on a C++ standard. You think it's fair to criticize Lippman for not following a standard that hadn't even been started yet? That's precisely my point - I've not read anyone at M$ say his job is standards conformance, and he doesn't have any experience in this regard. I'm not saying it's bad he didn't follow a standard that didn't exist, obviously that's not fair. I'm saying he hasn't got experience in that regard, regardless of having worked on a C++ compiler. In other words, the fact that he worked on a compiler does NOT make him a champion for the standard, and every bit of press I see links his name to Bjarne's, when quite obviously they are two different people, with differing viewpoints. I'll eat any disgusting thing you care to name the day Bjarne Stroustrup works for Microsoft, as person in charge of satndards conformance, or anything else you, or they, care to name. No, MS doesn't need anyone to tell them how to read the C++ standard (though it's not quite as easy to read as you might think, there are contradictory places that require knowledge of the intent of the authors to understand what they're saying). But having someone that is very pro-standard C++ leading the team means that standards will have a good champion. I have a copy myself and also read bug of the month in CUJ every month, so I have some idea of what's required to read the standard. ;) The question is really if his *job* is to provide standards conformance, and given that we agree M$ don't *need* him in order to do that, why have they been so slack in the past and (apparently) become concerned enough now that they are pushing a new language ( and claiming 60% conversion in 36 months ) to hire a big name when we agree they could do it without him ? You may not believe that he'll be such a champion... fine. But what other purpose is there in hiring such a seasoned C++ veteran to head up the team otherwise? You're joking, right ? Why hire a big name they don't need ? Because of the name, because of the publicity, so that if C# falls on it's backside they can say 'we were always going to keep supporting C++, look, we hired this big name guy', etc, etc ,etc. If they cared at all about standards, VC would be a lot less of a dog than it is on that front. They don't care at all, and I believe that one major attraction for them in C# is not
