C++ Relegated to Systems-Level Programming?
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To quote several people here 'No, Christian, M$ is not trying to kill C++, they want to give us another option for *insert lame reason here*'. I rest my case. M$ are betting the farm on killing cross platform development and creating a world where the standards they follow are all their own, seeing as they remain the WORST C++ implimentation in the WORLD, except maybe the one written by a 12 year old girl, sadly it's wrapped in the nicest IDE in the world. No surprises there, M$ are much better at glitz than content, always will be. XP still rules though ;P Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Actually, MS has re-committed themselves to C++ in many ways. For instance, they just hired Stanley Lippman to head up the VC team. He is a C++ pioneer, and worked with Bjarne on cfront 2.1 and 3.0. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Actually, MS has re-committed themselves to C++ in many ways. For instance, they just hired Stanley Lippman to head up the VC team. He is a C++ pioneer, and worked with Bjarne on cfront 2.1 and 3.0. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
And who also recently wrote a book on C#. I guarentee you Bjarne won't be writing anything on or in C#, in other words the fact that he met/bumped in to/worked with Bjarne in the past does not mean they are in the same league. This whole thing reeks to me of window dressing - if M$ had ANY commitment to C++, they would put more than token effort into standards conformance. Time will tell if Stanley's role is window dressing or not, but even with the best intentions, does he have the *power* to push M$ towards a real commitment to C++ ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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And who also recently wrote a book on C#. I guarentee you Bjarne won't be writing anything on or in C#, in other words the fact that he met/bumped in to/worked with Bjarne in the past does not mean they are in the same league. This whole thing reeks to me of window dressing - if M$ had ANY commitment to C++, they would put more than token effort into standards conformance. Time will tell if Stanley's role is window dressing or not, but even with the best intentions, does he have the *power* to push M$ towards a real commitment to C++ ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Just because he also likes C# doesn't mean he's not a very solid C++ guy. He didn't just "bump into" or "worked with" Bjarne, he *LED* the cfront group for the last two releases. It was his baby. I doubt very much if he would allow it to not support standards for much longer. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Just because he also likes C# doesn't mean he's not a very solid C++ guy. He didn't just "bump into" or "worked with" Bjarne, he *LED* the cfront group for the last two releases. It was his baby. I doubt very much if he would allow it to not support standards for much longer. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Given that cfront is not standards compliant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. In fact, a friend of mine has spoken to Bjarne about cfront and Bjarne told him he would be mad to use it for this exact reason - it does not conform to the standard. The standard is available online, I doubt thet actually *need* this guy to tell them how to read it, if that is all they want. It is obvious that his employment is at least in part because of his name, not what he will do. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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"We expect 60 percent or more Visual C++ developers to migrate to C# over the next 48 months. ... C++ is still going to be used. It's certainly going to be used in the COM and COM+ area...but it will be relegated to a systems-level programming language." - Mark Driver Gartner Group Inc. (.NET Magazine Fall/Winter 2001) Does anyone have any thoughtful comments? Rich
the guy's an idiot. my shop has millions of lines of C++ code that's not going to magically rewrite itself in C# just because Bill wants more developer mind-share. i'll be doing C++ for a long time. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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System programming? We are not talking about device drivers here... _speed will always matter_ - I still can´t imagine a _KILLER_ application where performance doesn´t count. And "unmanaged" c++ will be fastest. I mean that´s one reason I hate Java clients .. Just imagine if Photoshop or Illustrator would be 20%-40% (just guessing) slower than other C++ (or Delphi) programmed software?? People would just get a slower product. Why should people settle for that? Standard development jobs will be done in C# where performance is not the primary thing. And that´s for sure. And I hope youth will still pick up C++ in favor of C# oder J#. C++ just doesn´t get enough hype.. MS really tried to push Visual Basic on us. (I don´t have anything against VB, it´s just not my language). And now they are pushing C# (among others), I think it is a far better thing than pushing VB only. But it can´t touch C++. Things might look different as soon that .NET CLR thing is implemented at a hardware level.. :eek:
With hardware getting faster and faster these days, the speed that your code executes at isn’t a major factor in whether your applications gain wide spread use. If your application is reasonably fast for its role, most (say, 80%) of your users won’t be too concerned about the slower parts of your application. Users care about the results that an application provides - most don’t care about how fast your code is. As a result, most marketing people won’t include a bullet in a marketing brochure about an application that says something like, “Written in C++ - the world’s fastest programming language!”. I think Microsoft is taking a results oriented approach - give developers an easy way to produce applications on our platforms and the users will follow. The .NET Framework does just that and C# is one of the many ways of getting at that functionality. I think C++ will be around for a long time, but its primary role will be to create infrastructure-related products and services - the place where speed *does* matter since all other applications rely on the infrastructure. I’m a C++ developer myself, so it I’m disappointed about seeing C++ loose steam in the overall marketplace. Essam __________________________________________________ Author - JScript .NET Programming - Now Available! http://www.designs2solutions.com/jsnetprg
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Given that cfront is not standards compliant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. In fact, a friend of mine has spoken to Bjarne about cfront and Bjarne told him he would be mad to use it for this exact reason - it does not conform to the standard. The standard is available online, I doubt thet actually *need* this guy to tell them how to read it, if that is all they want. It is obvious that his employment is at least in part because of his name, not what he will do. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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He'll end up being another talking head for Microsoft. "...the staggering layers of obcenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Given that cfront is not standards compliant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. In fact, a friend of mine has spoken to Bjarne about cfront and Bjarne told him he would be mad to use it for this exact reason - it does not conform to the standard. The standard is available online, I doubt thet actually *need* this guy to tell them how to read it, if that is all they want. It is obvious that his employment is at least in part because of his name, not what he will do. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Uhh.. Dude. cfront 3 was released in 1991! That's several years before they even *BEGAN* working on a C++ standard. You think it's fair to criticize Lippman for not following a standard that hadn't even been started yet? No, MS doesn't need anyone to tell them how to read the C++ standard (though it's not quite as easy to read as you might think, there are contradictory places that require knowledge of the intent of the authors to understand what they're saying). But having someone that is very pro-standard C++ leading the team means that standards will have a good champion. You may not believe that he'll be such a champion... fine. But what other purpose is there in hiring such a seasoned C++ veteran to head up the team otherwise? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Uhh.. Dude. cfront 3 was released in 1991! That's several years before they even *BEGAN* working on a C++ standard. You think it's fair to criticize Lippman for not following a standard that hadn't even been started yet? No, MS doesn't need anyone to tell them how to read the C++ standard (though it's not quite as easy to read as you might think, there are contradictory places that require knowledge of the intent of the authors to understand what they're saying). But having someone that is very pro-standard C++ leading the team means that standards will have a good champion. You may not believe that he'll be such a champion... fine. But what other purpose is there in hiring such a seasoned C++ veteran to head up the team otherwise? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Uhh.. Dude. Hey, cool. I thought I was too old to be called 'dude' ;) cfront 3 was released in 1991! That's several years before they even *BEGAN* working on a C++ standard. You think it's fair to criticize Lippman for not following a standard that hadn't even been started yet? That's precisely my point - I've not read anyone at M$ say his job is standards conformance, and he doesn't have any experience in this regard. I'm not saying it's bad he didn't follow a standard that didn't exist, obviously that's not fair. I'm saying he hasn't got experience in that regard, regardless of having worked on a C++ compiler. In other words, the fact that he worked on a compiler does NOT make him a champion for the standard, and every bit of press I see links his name to Bjarne's, when quite obviously they are two different people, with differing viewpoints. I'll eat any disgusting thing you care to name the day Bjarne Stroustrup works for Microsoft, as person in charge of satndards conformance, or anything else you, or they, care to name. No, MS doesn't need anyone to tell them how to read the C++ standard (though it's not quite as easy to read as you might think, there are contradictory places that require knowledge of the intent of the authors to understand what they're saying). But having someone that is very pro-standard C++ leading the team means that standards will have a good champion. I have a copy myself and also read bug of the month in CUJ every month, so I have some idea of what's required to read the standard. ;) The question is really if his *job* is to provide standards conformance, and given that we agree M$ don't *need* him in order to do that, why have they been so slack in the past and (apparently) become concerned enough now that they are pushing a new language ( and claiming 60% conversion in 36 months ) to hire a big name when we agree they could do it without him ? You may not believe that he'll be such a champion... fine. But what other purpose is there in hiring such a seasoned C++ veteran to head up the team otherwise? You're joking, right ? Why hire a big name they don't need ? Because of the name, because of the publicity, so that if C# falls on it's backside they can say 'we were always going to keep supporting C++, look, we hired this big name guy', etc, etc ,etc. If they cared at all about standards, VC would be a lot less of a dog than it is on that front. They don't care at all, and I believe that one major attraction for them in C# is not
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I'm pleased I'm not the only one who can see that. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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In his acceptance speech/interview/script, he's already demonstrated that the MS cybernetic implants are working their magic. "...the staggering layers of obcenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
In his acceptance speech/interview/script, he's already demonstrated that the MS cybernetic implants are working their magic. Do you have a URL ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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To quote several people here 'No, Christian, M$ is not trying to kill C++, they want to give us another option for *insert lame reason here*'. I rest my case. M$ are betting the farm on killing cross platform development and creating a world where the standards they follow are all their own, seeing as they remain the WORST C++ implimentation in the WORLD, except maybe the one written by a 12 year old girl, sadly it's wrapped in the nicest IDE in the world. No surprises there, M$ are much better at glitz than content, always will be. XP still rules though ;P Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Blasphemer! Have you actually seen this 12 year old girl's C++ compiler? Have you tested it to confirm that it is worse than Microsoft's version? ;P If not pull you inbred Tasmanian head in. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Blasphemer! Have you actually seen this 12 year old girl's C++ compiler? Have you tested it to confirm that it is worse than Microsoft's version? ;P If not pull you inbred Tasmanian head in. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Slow day at work then, or just Mondayitis ? ;P Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
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Slow day at work then, or just Mondayitis ? ;P Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Didn't turn the computer on for the whole weekend. Just catching up with everything posted since Friday. Plus other very important stuff that would have me trolling Code Project. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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With hardware getting faster and faster these days, the speed that your code executes at isn’t a major factor in whether your applications gain wide spread use. If your application is reasonably fast for its role, most (say, 80%) of your users won’t be too concerned about the slower parts of your application. Users care about the results that an application provides - most don’t care about how fast your code is. As a result, most marketing people won’t include a bullet in a marketing brochure about an application that says something like, “Written in C++ - the world’s fastest programming language!”. I think Microsoft is taking a results oriented approach - give developers an easy way to produce applications on our platforms and the users will follow. The .NET Framework does just that and C# is one of the many ways of getting at that functionality. I think C++ will be around for a long time, but its primary role will be to create infrastructure-related products and services - the place where speed *does* matter since all other applications rely on the infrastructure. I’m a C++ developer myself, so it I’m disappointed about seeing C++ loose steam in the overall marketplace. Essam __________________________________________________ Author - JScript .NET Programming - Now Available! http://www.designs2solutions.com/jsnetprg
Good point, I actually agreed that C# will have a strong place in *everyday* programming duties. But speed matters for killer-standalone-applications (Word, photoshop, 3dsmax), which the average user still uses 75% of time and i think they won't be rewritten from C++ (or any other compiled language) at all without a striking reason ... as soon as .NET services are the killer applications ;-) of course, things will look different. But _still_ one could use managed c++ to fully profit from the .NET advantages. that's what I call freedom. small -> middle sized Apps starting from scratch and allready targeted for .NET and the next generation of developers (students etc) will tend to use C# for their apps. of course no brochure ever read "written in the fastest language" available, C++, but the opposite (not fast enough) would be a knock-out criteria: A creepy slow app that doesn't ever get a brochure... java clients :-)
