Computer Science

Fazlul Kabir

Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul

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Michael P Butler

I have no formal computer related education and I've survived 12 years in the industry. I'm not sure whether I'm a good programmer but none of the people I've worked for have had any complaints about my coding or design skills. (Some complaints about my attitude though :-) ) Michael :-)

Frank Liao

Well, I might as well tell you about myself before I give you the answers. First, I'm a current Computer Science and Engineering undergraduate at UCLA (in the US) and work part time as a programmer. So, these answers will be based on what I know now and what I have experienced through school. So, we will establish first that you can become a programmer without any formal education. First thing that comes to mind would be if formal education improve your coding discipline/conventions/etc. The answer would be an emphatic NO in my case. I gained most of mine through reading books like Code Complete by McConnell. Second, does it give you any skills working in teams? In this area, I would say NO. Classes here seem to emphasize on working alone and finishing within a 2 week time schedule, which may allow you to break away from conventions/discipline/etc and not allow you to think everything out. Third, does it give you any more knowledge in the way you program. I would have to say YES. Classes like Operating Systems and Algorithms gives you knowledge of what the OS does and how to approach problems with the maximal efficiency. This is one part that I don't think is easy to come by without formal education (also depends if you pay attention too :-D). The programming languages class was somewhat interesting because it told me a lot about problems and advantages of languages in the past and present. It made me understand (along with other classes) what the tradeoffs were when using a type of syntax. Fourth, are all computer science classes a reflection of what programmers go through in real life? The answer is NO. A lot of classes I've taken has been geared towards some software development and a lot more low-level designing (on the gate level). Conclusion: I really don't think that you need CS classes to become a good programmer. There are some advanced things you can learn by picking up a book (you could probably get any of our textbooks at any online bookstore) and forcing yourself to read. Understanding things like stack allocation and heap allocation may help you mold your mind into coding efficiently. School is just another way of forcing you to learn new things and making sure that you know some of it (I know a lot of people who forgot about programming after taking those classes). Of course, if you want to privilege of earning a degree, go right ahead. The degree will last you for only short time before experience becomes the biggest factor in

Jon Sagara

I'm about to graduate with a Computer Engineering degree. I get the best of both worlds - hardware and software. A person doesn't need to be a CS graduate in order to be a good programmer. I know a guy who was a roadie for Guns 'N Roses who one day decided to be a programmer, and now he makes a six-figure salary as a code monkey. I actually value working with people like him because they offer different perspectives on problems (outside the box, if you will) than people who have learned about programming from "inside the box." All it takes is the desire to work as a programmer and the ability to think. Jon Sagara "After all is said and done, usually more is said than done." -- Unknown

Tim Smith

No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.

Frank Liao

I'm not sure whether I'm a good programmer but none of the people I've worked for have had any complaints about my coding or design skills. Don't worry. I've seen some programmers (even one who recently graduated who worked at my place for like 3 years) be the worst programmers in the world, not to mention the most deceitful ones because they hide behind the skill that the average person doesn't know much about. Formal education is only good if you know how to use it.;) Frank

Fazlul Kabir

DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. I agree on that. Things are changing fast. // Fazlul

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ColinDavies

I bombed out of Pharmacology school, And when I say "bombed out", I mean it with both meanings. :-) I've got some 3rd and 4th yr CS type courses under my belt, but no Degree. And will probably never get one. I don't believe you have to be a CS grad to be a great programmer, It helps to give you the fundamentals, But its not the real word, where you have to "do stuff". I've met 'some' developers who were self taught from books and on the job, and they have impressed me more than 'some' CS grads. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com

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Anna Jayne Metcalfe

I studied Electronic & Electrical Engineering at the University of Surrey. Although we studied a Computer Engineering as part of the course, the topics presented were more hardware orientated than software (C++ and UML didn't even exist in 1985!), and although interesting at the time, aren't directly relevant now. We were taught Pascal (I already knew it :) ), Z-80 assembler (ditto - I used to write CP/M system software for fun :rolleyes: ) and Algol-68 :mad:. For some reason (read: one lecturer's prejudice) we weren't taught C!! Fortunately, I'd already taught myself (using a public domain floating point Z-80 C compiler...). With the exception of a UML course 4 years back, everything else I've picked up is self-taught. The way I see it, if you can learn, you will learn - courses just give you a leg-up. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd

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Jamie Nordmeyer

Hi Fazlul. I am also an electrical engineer by degree (Bachelors from ITT Tech in Seattle), but moved to programming when I discovered that it was more to my liking. I had two full quarters of DOS based C++ programming (Borland Turbo C++ 3) during my time there. On my own, I've learned Win32 C/C++ programming, as well as Visual Basic, ASP, HTML, XML/XSL, and currently, .NET and Palm programming. Do I have a CS degree? Nope. Just an unquenchable desire to learn as much as I can. :) Jamie Nordmeyer Portland, Oregon, USA

another

DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. While I agree that a degree is valuable, so is experience. When I was just out of college with a CS degree but little professional experience, I know one can feel a bit like a leper. In other words, interview = degree + experience But I agree. I have a CS degree, and I'm glad I do. Craig Dodge This message printed on 100% recycled electrons.

ColinDavies

EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com

Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme

Michael P Butler

Sad but true. Many a time in the last few years, all the good jobs have been closed to me because of my lack of a degree. Which I think is a crock of ****, I have 8 years MFC Experience / 12 years commercial development. Yet they won't even talk to me. Michael :-)

Navin

I think formal education definitely helps, but not in the ways you might expect. I learned a lot of "nuts and bolts" stuff on the job. Things like MFC, Perl, Windows programming, etc. I learned C in high school, and although I did learn C++ in college, I certainly could have learned it by a book, practicing, etc. Where having a formal education (for me, undergraduate CS degree) helped were in a few aspects. 1. Teamwork. We had several classes that involved parners or group efforts. And most of the time, we were allowed, sometimes encouraged, to work together on homework assignments (but not exams... :) ) 2. Fundamentals, like code design, maintainability, etc. I find that people without a CS background tend to be weak in these areas (especially maintainability.) 3. Connections and networking. Even still, a lot of getting a job is who you know. The more people you meet, the more opportunities you have, plain and simple. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

philip andrew

I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd

Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))

Mike Burston

I have often thought of going and doing a theology ... Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. or cosmology degree Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------

Fazlul Kabir

A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. That may sound logical, but most corporate HR folks think differently. They want to see both of our degrees and experiences together. I know it sucks, but that's the reality, especially in this tight IT market. // Fazlul

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Tim Smith

But it is the real world. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.

Tim Smith

But if you ever find yourself looking for a job again... But getting a degree now is questionable. I was more talking about the kids just coming out of highschool. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.