George Bush vows to block funding for stem cell research
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And if we didn't evalutate the morality of every advance in science that might benefit humanity we might well be performing experiments on some convenient minority population (aside from embryos, I mean). If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: And if we didn't evalutate the morality of every advance in science that might benefit humanity we might well be performing experiments on some convenient minority population (aside from embryos, I mean). If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Why not? It would be another victory for capitalism! Stan Shannon wrote: "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom." <--- SEE!!!
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"GEORGE BUSH: I believe America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of science, and I believe we can do so while still fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1376788.htm[^] House defies Bush over stem cell bill http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1491535,00.html[^] Then why is he going to veto the bill if he wants America to pursue the "tremendous possibilities of science"?:confused: Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
The recent stem cell research issue (in the US) seems to bring out the polarization of both sides - much like abortion has done in the past. It seems like both sides are busily constructing demons to point the finger at. In reality, the President's agenda has always been to block fetal stem-cell research. i.e. stem cells harvested from dead fetuses (whether they be miscarriages or abortions). To my knowledge, there has never been any block or attempted block on stem cell research in general - just on those which come from fetuses. The painting of the President's (and thus the Right's) stance as being 'anti stem-cell research' appears to me to be a woefully - and probably intentionally - shallow analysis of that position. Personally, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. I don't believe that fetal stem cell research is going to create a black-market for dead fetuses, nor do I see anything inherently wrong with using otherwise unused waste matter (e.g. dead fetuses) for scientific advancement. I guess that puts me in opposition to the Right's stance on the issue, which is fine of course. But still, crappier arguments (BushCo. hates stem cells!) are no way to fend off crappy arguments (Fetal stem cell research is murder!). Probably a great way to get re-elected, though, if you can polarize enough of your constituents with the aforementioned demons. -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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Generally this moral evaluation comes when considering each application of the science not in the research of the basic science. If anyone believes that stem cell research involves harvesting of live, viable embryos they are seriously delusional. Stan Shannon wrote: why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Not a bad idea considering the current state of our world and societies... :~ ;P "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Generally this moral evaluation comes when considering each application of the science not in the research of the basic science. If anyone believes that stem cell research involves harvesting of live, viable embryos they are seriously delusional. So true. People hear the word "embryo" and start spouting off at the mouth immediately. Those guilty of that clearly do not understand what stem cell research is about.
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The recent stem cell research issue (in the US) seems to bring out the polarization of both sides - much like abortion has done in the past. It seems like both sides are busily constructing demons to point the finger at. In reality, the President's agenda has always been to block fetal stem-cell research. i.e. stem cells harvested from dead fetuses (whether they be miscarriages or abortions). To my knowledge, there has never been any block or attempted block on stem cell research in general - just on those which come from fetuses. The painting of the President's (and thus the Right's) stance as being 'anti stem-cell research' appears to me to be a woefully - and probably intentionally - shallow analysis of that position. Personally, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. I don't believe that fetal stem cell research is going to create a black-market for dead fetuses, nor do I see anything inherently wrong with using otherwise unused waste matter (e.g. dead fetuses) for scientific advancement. I guess that puts me in opposition to the Right's stance on the issue, which is fine of course. But still, crappier arguments (BushCo. hates stem cells!) are no way to fend off crappy arguments (Fetal stem cell research is murder!). Probably a great way to get re-elected, though, if you can polarize enough of your constituents with the aforementioned demons. -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
Nice commentary. Good to hear a voice of moderation. Thanks.
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I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. I also do not necessarily agree with Bush, but I am glad there are people asking these kinds of quesitons. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. The left is in favour of medical research, while the right is spending money to research putting guns in the sky[^]. Whose morality are you questioning?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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Looks like Europe will be getting ahead of the States in another new technological/medical breakthrough area... ;P
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
The whole area is full of talk of possibilities. Maybe good ones. But we're not there yet. So EU and CA are betting on those possibilities. Time will tell... But honestly - "keeping up with the Joneses" is as just as bad a rational for this as for anything else.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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"GEORGE BUSH: I believe America must pursue the tremendous possibilities of science, and I believe we can do so while still fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages. http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1376788.htm[^] House defies Bush over stem cell bill http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1491535,00.html[^] Then why is he going to veto the bill if he wants America to pursue the "tremendous possibilities of science"?:confused: Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: Then why is he going to veto the bill From the second article: Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. I also do not necessarily agree with Bush, but I am glad there are people asking these kinds of quesitons. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: morality of scientific progress If we constrained scientific progress based upon morality, I think the mail would be still be delivered by horses. :) Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Remember that in Texas, Gun Control is hitting what you aim at. [Richard Stringer] Nice sig! [Tim Deveaux on Matt Newman's sig with a quote from me]
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K(arl) wrote: Good news for us europeans! Europeans need to drastically increase overall R&D spending or they'll fall seriously behind Asia and never get much past us backward reactionary sectarian puritan Americans. ;P "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Europeans need to drastically increase overall R&D spending Absolutely! The more "we" will invest in R&D, the best it will be. It worked for aeronautics, it can work for other technologies.
Fold with us!
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets - Voltaire, 1694-1778 -
Generally this moral evaluation comes when considering each application of the science not in the research of the basic science. If anyone believes that stem cell research involves harvesting of live, viable embryos they are seriously delusional. Stan Shannon wrote: why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Not a bad idea considering the current state of our world and societies... :~ ;P "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: If anyone believes that stem cell research involves harvesting of live, viable embryos they are seriously delusional. Well, I suppose I'm seriously delusional then. Dead, non-viable embryos have living, viable stem cells? How does that work? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Stan Shannon wrote: I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. The left is in favour of medical research, while the right is spending money to research putting guns in the sky[^]. Whose morality are you questioning?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
That kind of makes my point. If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. Why worry about the morality of either one? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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That kind of makes my point. If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. Why worry about the morality of either one? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. I disagree. To me, this is like saying that giving someone an aspirin for a headache or punching them in the head are equally legitimate forms of social interaction. Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. * Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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If every scientific advancement was stifled due to concerns about how the new knowledge "might" be abused, humans would still be hiding in caves. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Humans never hid in caves. We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. The rest I agree with - to a point. We should do basic research on stem cells. However President Bush has a moral disagreement with this. He has never hid that and is acting on his own moral judgement. Can't argue with that. America will be in the forefront of stem cell research eventually but I do not see it as the panacea that others do. At present it is just one of several good areas or research. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Humans never hid in caves. We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. The rest I agree with - to a point. We should do basic research on stem cells. However President Bush has a moral disagreement with this. He has never hid that and is acting on his own moral judgement. Can't argue with that. America will be in the forefront of stem cell research eventually but I do not see it as the panacea that others do. At present it is just one of several good areas or research. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
Richard Stringer wrote: We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. ...using tools developed by our "science" (spears, arrows, slings) that if/when abused can do bad things. We didn't worry about it then and I suggest we not do so now. Without the tools, we would have been hiding in those caves. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Stan Shannon wrote: If it is wrong to question the morality of stem cell research, why is it ok to question the morality of military research? Both are equally legitimate fields of science. I disagree. To me, this is like saying that giving someone an aspirin for a headache or punching them in the head are equally legitimate forms of social interaction. Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. * Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. In a word - bullshit. If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act. Again - bullshit. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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JoeSox wrote: Then why is he going to veto the bill From the second article: Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Is he referring to that line waaay back there on the horizon? :rolleyes:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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JWood wrote: Reagan's Alzheimer's disease could have been helped by stem cell research. In theory. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Actually quite a lot of successfull experiments has been performed on rats. But all the fuss from people thinking this is black magic has put a severe break in human projects. By the way, time is running from US and Europe, in this area anyway, a couple of days ago Japanese scientists announced that they've succeeded cloning stem cells. It means that stem cells can be cloned from a patients body, eliminating the risk of the immune system reacting hostile to the cells. [edit]Oh, just discovered that it was south-korean scientists that made the breakthrough.[/edit] "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. In a word - bullshit. If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act. Again - bullshit. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
Richard Stringer wrote: Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape Fantastic groundbreaking new science you got there, have you thought of publishing it? If aggression and violence were the path to 'thinking', then nearly all the bloody gnats, rodents and whatnot on this earth would be sipping lattes discussing Kafka. "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm guessing because he feels that certain stem cell research would not be "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." I don't personally agree with him, but I can read entire sentences. "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." This is the same President that decided to start a War. This President needs to get his shit together imo. He obviously does not trust the scientific community. I guess in his mind he is displaying political courage. Maybe he doesn't have trust that the government will be giving funding to the correct research. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
Well said! -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
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JoeSox wrote: Then why is he going to veto the bill From the second article: Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Shog9 wrote: Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear. He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler