Microsoft rejects Visual Studio delay request

[code frog 0]

Christian Graus wrote: you don't though. Service packs have always been free. Let's see you are right. But since I'm a developer that means I'm egotistical, self-centered, chavenistic and cannot ever admit to being wrong (even if I *was* just having fun)... So... In order to be lamely right, or very weakly right or just stupid. If you have a huge company that has 3000 developers and they each download the 100 meg service pack and you get charged for your bandwidth over 1 gig. Then it does cost money.:) Yup, I already agree with you. That's simply the dumbest damn thing you've ever seen and me too. But I should get at least a green star on my homework for creativity... or not :doh:

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will finish this project, in this life or the next. Slightly modified " from Gladiator. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.

[Christian Graus]

code-frog wrote: If you have a huge company that has 3000 developers and they each download the 100 meg service pack and you get charged for your bandwidth over 1 gig. Then it does cost money Only if the company is too stupid not to download it once and share it locally. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++

[code frog 0]

{DUCKS!} Damn! Well... Guess you got me... {SCRATCHES HEAD}... Of course no company with that many people would be so stupid to get an ISP like that anyways so it was a weak argument from conception. ... Well, I tried guess the nay sayers will have to shut up now. I guess we made your point pretty well.;)

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will finish this project, in this life or the next. Slightly modified " from Gladiator. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.

[Long Gone]

My first reaction, when I read about this, was to post it here but (trying) to be a kindler & gentler B!tch I waited, for a day, to see if anyone else would. Do you know that here it is considered blasphemy to question the Pope of Redmond Village. Don’t you know he is infallible? I really liked the response from Redmond: Representatives from Microsoft's Visual Studio development group decided to pass on the suggestion. A few hours later, it posted a note saying, "We are confident that we will be able to ship you a high-quality product later this year." Are they smoking crack? That suggestion, for all you who flame before you read, was to fix the known bugs before releasing the product. Blasphemy! If they had waited to fix known bugs they couldn’t name it VisualStudio20042005. Kudos for the post. Don't shoot! I'm only the piano player messenger. Beatress

[Matt Newman]

"I'd rather have a good product six months from now than a mediocre one in three months," wrote Clint Stotesbery on Thursday. :omg: I know him!!! But I disagree with him, I think its been delayed to long already. Matt Newman
Even the very best tools in the hands of an idiot will produce something of little or no value. - Chris Meech on Idiots

[JimmyRopes]

Free service packs? That went the way of “Trustworthy Computing”. Notice that no one talks about it anymore. These days they are naming service packs (e.g.,WindowsVista. What is the value added in this release?), and charging for them. Brilliant marketing? Yes. Technologically innovative? No. I would rather have my teeth drilled than do system testing! JimmyRopes

[Long Gone]

I’m glad you don’t design airplanes!:doh: Don't shoot! I'm only the piano player messenger. Beatress

[code frog 0]

I see your point and I don't. I mean if you feel this way. You should uninstall VS.Net 2003 and Windows XP. There are bugs in both of them and many waiting to be discovered. Both have been out for at least 2 years and both still have bugs. You are talking about bajillions of lines of code. Have you ever walked through a really well done home? I mean even a million dollar estate? If you have then you have seen mistakes here and there. Chips in tile, something not totally square. Perhaps a sink too high or low. A car's paint job might have a nic in it. Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Etc all issue recalls for parts, engines and safety devices. Even in the best art in the world there are bugs. Except in that case it's even better art. .-.-.-. I say you just remove .Net completely and dump XP to. Don't get a MAC though. They just released patches for 34 vulnerabilities today in OSX. I see regular bug fixes come in for Linux as well. Do you see a pattern yet? It's not that I worship Microsoft. It's that I hold others to the same standard I can keep myself. I think you should not release anymore code until you are 100% sure it's bug free. You'll starve to death by the way. We've crossed paths before and I don't think either of us made a real impression on the other. I don't expect that to have changed this time either. I do think you should uninstall .Net and XP though. They are both buggy and you shouldn't be using them as they don't meet up with your standards of course not a single application ever written does but hey, who's counting? Well anyway, here's an opinion to provide a different perspective than yours. Gotta have a balance I suppose. ;P

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will finish this project, in this life or the next. Slightly modified " from Gladiator. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.

[Rocky Moore]

For me, I would rather see it pushed out just for one more beta. Even with the limited amount time I have used VS2005, it does not seem near as stable as previous releases. With VS2002 and VS2003, I never experienced the ranges of crashes that I have with VS2005. Once of the most annoying is when it decides to take a dive with unsaved modified source files still open. This is one product I think they need to do a little more testing. While there are a number of nice features, it would be a shame to purchase (and at no small price) the release to have it crash as much as the beta 2 does. That is, if it is still as unstable. The idea about service packs seem to be a joke for Microsoft and VS, they seem to want to make you wait until the next version for fixes once it is out the door. Rocky <>< My Blog[^]

[Kevin McFarlane]

In fact, according to Steve McConnell's Code Complete Microsoft's software defect rate is well below the industry average but of course, being top dog, they're held to a higher standard than everyone else. No doubt we can all do better still but the main problem is refusal to acknowledge bugs when they occur, as vendors often do. Kevin

[Kevin McFarlane]

Rocky Moore wrote: For me, I would rather see it pushed out just for one more beta. Even with the limited amount time I have used VS2005, it does not seem near as stable as previous releases. Not yet used 2005 in any form. However, the Visual Studio product has got progressively more complex over time and, to be honest, I would expect at least three betas for something this complex - ditto for the first VS .NET. Rocky Moore wrote: The idea about service packs seem to be a joke for Microsoft and VS, they seem to want to make you wait until the next version for fixes once it is out the door. Yes, for some reason they seem to be skimpy on SP's since VS .NET. There were six for VS 6 and that was a far less complex product. If anything it's the VS .NET line which could do with multiple SPs. Kevin

[Kevin McFarlane]

code-frog wrote: Have you ever walked through a really well done home? I mean even a million dollar estate? If you have then you have seen mistakes here and there. Chips in tile, something not totally square. Perhaps a sink too high or low. A car's paint job might have a nic in it. Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Etc all issue recalls for parts, engines and safety devices. Yes. I used to work in oil and gas engineering - designing oil platforms. Plenty of errors but catastrophic failures were very rare. Why is this? It's because there was a lot of redundancy in the systems. That's why non-software systems seem to be more reliable. I expect software systems themselves may have to move towards this kind of approach to get more reliability. code-frog wrote: I think you should not release anymore code until you are 100% sure it's bug free. And, of course, it is impossible to prove that software is bug-free. We can only demonstrate that it contains defects. I saw a concise proof of this somewhere but can't remember where. So the previous poster could never be 100% sure it's bug free and therefore could never release any software. Kevin

[Anna Jayne Metcalfe]

While I can sympathise with the request for a third beta (Beta 1 was practically unuseable for add-in developers, and Beta 2 has some nasties which we really would like to see fixed and tested in a Beta before we see the final release) I don't think delaying the programme much longer would be to anyone's benefit. A compromise solution may be to make a public release candidate available in (say) September, but I don't see that on the roadmap either. As a result we're almost forced to support Beta 2 (which believe me is not easy - even adding custom Options pages seems to crash it) until well after the product is formally released. Anna :rose: Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.

[Long Gone]

code-frog wrote: I see your point and I don't. Perhaps Mr. Newman can explain what his rush is? Could he elaborate on some new earth shattering feature that Visual Studio 2005 is going to give him that he is lacking in Visual Studio 2003? In fact why do we need a new release and not just a service pack for Visual Studio 2003? And why wasn’t Visual Studio 2003 a service pack to Visual Studio 2002. And why wasn’t Visual Studio 2002 a service pack to Visual Studio .NET, the original VS7 release. In fact all of these new releases of VS7 are giving what was originally promised in Visual Studio .NET and should have been supplied as service pack enhancements or were the promises just vacuous marketing hype. Even if there was some must have feature why rush something to market when beta test results have not been incorporated and known problems resolved? code-frog wrote: It's not that I worship Microsoft. Obviously I do not either, but I must pay the devil her due when it comes to Visual Studio. Sit down before reading this. I think Visual Studio is a very good development environment. Have you recovered yet? In fact as a product it seemed to be going in the right direction, until now, that is. To be fair, judging by the past performance of the VS development effort, it was probably some Billy Bigshits that made the decision to release before known problems were resolved and beta test results were incorporated. An analogy might be if you think that by putting some bean counter in charge of making medical decisions will result in better medical practice then you probably love the direction HMOs (health maintenance organization) in the US have gone in the past few years. Likewise, letting some bean counter determine quality standards for software will have equally disastrous effects on quality. code-frog wrote: It's not that I worship Microsoft. It's that I hold others to the same standard I can keep myself. Me too, and that is exactly the reason I would never release a product with known problems. code-frog wrote: We've crossed paths before and I don't think either of us made a real impression on the other. Quite the contrary, you have made an impression but I will pass on the chance to elaborate as it does not enter into how I view your arguments, as in points taken, not your being argumentative. code-frog wrote: <

[Eric Goedhart]

:( That's bad news, i was waiting for a free Visual Studio 2005 Beta 3 version! With friendly greetings, Yepper65

[code frog 0]

I'm giving you a 5 for this post. I've read a lot of your posts and this is one of the best I've seen in a while. I did not at all expect such an excellent response from you and I'm impressed (whether that means anything or not). You make really good arguments and the only thing I can say to you in response is that I think you and I distinctly represent 2 different but common consumers that exist. I think that Microsoft has to try and satisfy both consumers and that must be difficult to do. I will add this. I very much expect their November product to be significantly better in many, many ways than what the current experience is. If you get a copy of it I want you to single me out and let me know your thoughts. If you think it stinks I'll respect that for sure. For me I'll just have to wait for November to see what's going to happen. I'm optimistic and you are pessimistic with this product release and both views are necessary I think. I try not to be close minded and your reply certainly reminds that I am open minded on this issue and should be. As a consumer your view is common just as mine and it carries weight. Microsoft has to juggle eggs on this one and I'm glad I'm not the one that had to make the decision on what to do with this. I actually hadn't noticed your spelling or grammar until I saw your comment and I laughed. It was a funny comment. What can I say... You impressed the hell out me with your reply. It was compact you addressed some excellent points and I don't really think they are debatable. They represent one large view that Microsoft has to embrace to a greater or lesser degree. It would appear in *this* and many other cases that my view is the one they are adopting and perhaps that's not a good thing. Well anyway, your response was worth reading and I appreciated it. - Rex

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will finish this project, in this life or the next. Slightly modified " from Gladiator. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.

[code frog 0]

Can I also add that I have been stupid enough to click your icon more than once to view your profile and each time I do I get a laugh. I love your bio. Now I have to ask this. You don't really live in Afghanistan do you? If that seems like a really arrogant or stupid question it isn't meant to be but it has me dying of curiousity... I mean... you don't wear underwear/underware you claim to have either married a {b_t_h} or been one that was married and now you live in Afghanistan. You either have as creative an imagination as I do or you have one fascinating story to tell. Either way, I'm cool with. If you are having fun with your profile power to you. I enjoy it each time I get forgetful and click it. You should put something stupid in there just for me because I know I'm going to click it again in no time. :doh: Catch you soon! Next time I cross your path I'm going to try like hell to show you a lot more respect as your reply to mine made me look like a sod.:doh:;P

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will finish this project, in this life or the next. Slightly modified " from Gladiator. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.

[Long Gone]

First, let me respond to your previous post. Thank you for actually reading what I say. Too many people take a disliking to me based on my on-line persona, self professed b!tch, and can not get over it enough to actually read what I am saying, thus the post script waving them off before they send some drivel about how I misspelled something or my grammar is not right. It is pretty amazing how they like to attack you personally because they don’t like the way you say something. I have since put that statement in my signature and am putting the morons on notice if they comment about my spelling or grammar, and not the points I am trying to make, I will flame them in return. I believe that there is room for many different opinions about things. If we all thought the same there would be no point in discussing things, and life would be pretty boring. I have read the things you say to a lot of people and think that your technical advice is excellent. I agree with some of your personal opinions, on other than technical matters, and disagree with others. That’s what makes us all different. As you may have surmised I like diversity. As far as VS2005 is concerned, I do not know if I will ever actually use it. I passed on the opportunity to purchase VS.NET & VS2002 because, in my opinion, they were not mature enough as a product for my liking. As you well know Visual Studio is quite expensive. If I am going to part with that much cash it will be for something that I deem will give me return for my money, as in having a paying client that needs some feature not in VS2003. I was using VS6 until last year and it still works fine for non .Net applications but even I see the need to provide solutions using the new architecture eventually, so I went out and purchased VS2003. If VS2005 offers me some value, not just an incremental update to VS2003, I will purchase it. If, on the other hand, I do not see value for money, I will probably give it a pass and wait for VS2007 or VS2009 before I purchase an upgrade for VS2003, and that is only if there is something in the newer release that I need. I don’t like to spend money without a good reason. My experience with .NET, so far, is that my C# programs seem to run slower than similar native (not managed) C++ programs. I haven’t yet set up any comprehensive tests but will when I get some spare time. I am working on solving a particularly tricky intermittent problem in a multi threaded application at the moment and do not have the time to do anything else

[code frog 0]

H@c%erB!tch wrote: If I told you I was living in Botswana would you believe me? At this point yes. But I'd have to look up where that is. I'm way to Idaho to know very much about anything outside of this country. I actually had quite a travel budget set up to try and fix my hick ignorance my sick kid blew all that at $1 an ounce to feed her. My wife is amazing and try's to make me more open minded on a regular basis (it tends to close on it's own at times) and really thinks that me going around the world would be fun. If we didn't have a sick middle child we would both try to get on that show Amazing Race because we hate being ignorant Americans. We do love our country but our ignorance of other cultures is painful for us even. Your comments on VS and your reasons for spending verses not spending sound like something out of the best finance schools in the world. If the car you have runs well why get a new one? If the house you live in meets your needs why spend more money on something bigger or fancier. If VS2K3 meets your needs then why go to VS2K5? I can see your logic. I'm in more of a crunch. I have clients that know about VS and follow it closely. These people *really* do pay a tithe just to Mr. Gates on Monday. They will ask me if I'm using 2005 and why not. On the other side I have tons of people asking me for feedback on stuff before they invest. So I have to stay current. Thankfully MSDN Universal keeps all the bases covered and will included Vista and all the other 2005 products. My business is just big enough and just diverse enough where I don't have the power of choice at times I just have to eat it (the cost of product X) and sign up. I have yet to be at any Microsoft launch event though I would attend if both finances and kids were healthy at the same time out of curiousity. As far as the rest of what you typed I'm getting a kick out of it. Your profile is funny because I know that there are tons of people that really let you get under there skin and so they click on it your icon to go see it and there you are pretty much in the buff (a figure of speech) asking them what they are looking at. It's great. My sense of humor is just twisted enough to respect others for being slightly twisted because I think slightly twisted is the actual normal that society tries to hide by promoting wussey-butt-kissing-corporate-lip-sucking-dogs as the normal and desired standard. Ooops, did I really just type that? Oh well... It's how I feel.:laugh: - Rex

[Long Gone]

code-frog wrote: H@c%erB!tch wrote: If I told you I was living in Botswana would you believe me? At this point yes. I have two words to describe the place Okavango Delta. It is one of the last places on earth, even in Africa, where you actually experience what it was like to live on the planet thousands of years ago. Too many other places tout their National Parks and when you get there you travel on paved roads, scenic views are ruined by distant power lines, etc. In the Okavango Delta you will not see any of that and if you listen closely, and know what you are listening for, it is not unusual to hear lions talking to each other, they make coughing sounds, in that clump of trees right over there. Obviously, you don't go investigate. When you are lying in your tent at night you hear leopard sounds in the night, and I was lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time during mating season, elephants fighting. Elephants fighting are one of the most awesome things I have ever heard. Trees actually get knocked over. We went out to get a closer look but had to beat a hasty retreat when a third male trumpeted his candidacy from behind us. It would have been interesting but possibly fatal to stay where we were so we checked out the carnage after the contest was settled. Wilderbeast stampeeds are also awesome. code-frog wrote: I'm way to Idaho to know very much about anything outside of this country. Did you say Iowa? Just joking. I once suggested that a fellow from Idaho that he was from Cornstalk, Iowa and that folks who live in places where people outnumber livestock might think a bit differently then him. His reply was a classic. code-frog wrote: I have tons of people asking me for feedback on stuff before they invest. So I have to stay current. Thankfully MSDN Universal keeps all the bases covered and will included Vista and all the other 2005 products. I, for one, would appreciate your opinion about Vista and, especially, VS2005 when you get a chance to give them a try. code-frog wrote: wussey-butt-kissing-corporate-lip-sucking-dogs :omg::wtf::rolleyes::laugh: P.S. – for all you anal retentive folks out there tempted to comment on my spelling or grammar save your energy. I don’t care. Don't shoot! I'm only the piano player messenger. Beatress