Thank you Microsoft
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I love your post. If I could give you multiple 5's I would. I refuse to do cross-platform coding in anything but Java (ICK!!!). However, IntelliJ is my reason for doing that. The IntelliJ IDE is just a pleasure and that's about all I can say. My hope/prayer is that Mono and Cocoa become mainstream soon but until a large entity with tons of cash gets behind that with dedication and perserverance neither of those 2 are viable ... yet. So I'll stick with Java for MAC->Win->Lin systems and for pure Windows I'll bask in the warm glo of Microsoft and know that I'm loving every minute of it. Coding in Linux/Mac makes my colon ache and that's the only way to put it. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
Coding in Linux/Mac makes my colon ache and that's the only way to put it. :laugh:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
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I love your post. If I could give you multiple 5's I would. I refuse to do cross-platform coding in anything but Java (ICK!!!). However, IntelliJ is my reason for doing that. The IntelliJ IDE is just a pleasure and that's about all I can say. My hope/prayer is that Mono and Cocoa become mainstream soon but until a large entity with tons of cash gets behind that with dedication and perserverance neither of those 2 are viable ... yet. So I'll stick with Java for MAC->Win->Lin systems and for pure Windows I'll bask in the warm glo of Microsoft and know that I'm loving every minute of it. Coding in Linux/Mac makes my colon ache and that's the only way to put it. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
code-frog wrote:
My hope/prayer is that Mono and Cocoa become mainstream soon but until a large entity
Novell bought Ximian -- and Mono is now developed under the Novell umbrella. Novell is (still) a billion dollar corporation. Is that big enough for you.
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I love your post. If I could give you multiple 5's I would. I refuse to do cross-platform coding in anything but Java (ICK!!!). However, IntelliJ is my reason for doing that. The IntelliJ IDE is just a pleasure and that's about all I can say. My hope/prayer is that Mono and Cocoa become mainstream soon but until a large entity with tons of cash gets behind that with dedication and perserverance neither of those 2 are viable ... yet. So I'll stick with Java for MAC->Win->Lin systems and for pure Windows I'll bask in the warm glo of Microsoft and know that I'm loving every minute of it. Coding in Linux/Mac makes my colon ache and that's the only way to put it. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
You're missing out on Python[^]coupled with wxPython[^]. Native looking apps with a language that is so intuitive, my girlfriend could pick it up in a matter of hours. In fact, Python is based on ABC; a language specifically developed for non-programmers. Give it a try on a free weekend. You'll be amazed at how little you actually have to fight the compiler and can actually get on with "real programming". http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0036[^] Producivity over Performance[^] Jim QTExtender - The OFFICIAL addon for QuoteTracker.
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I had a similar experience with Java this weekend. A friend asked for a Java project that talks to a COM control. So I downloaded and fired up Borland's JBuilder and the open source Eclipse IDE. Both are quite laughable compared to Visual Studio. JBuilder was alright, but frustrating at times. Eclipse was absolute junk, I was cursing at it several times an hour; I don't know how people continue on with that crap. The breakpoints were rather tedius. Rather than clicking on the line of code to the left, I would have to right-click, toggle breakpoint. Ok, no biggie if you know the shortcut key. But the IDE does these little figure-out-what's-wrong in the background before you compile, so if you have an incomplete line of code that would issue a warning or error, Eclipse politely covers the bookmarked icon with a "you did something wrong" icon, so you cannot tell whether it is a breakpoint. The context menu just says "toggle breakpoint", which also gives no clue as to whether the line of code is a breakpoint. And for the record, Java's interaction with native code is one of the worst abominations I've ever seen. Basically what it comes down to with the Ole automation stuff is you're coding with strings and lots of ugly methods. oleAutomation.getIdsOfNames("myMethod")[0].invoke(). You can't actually deal with the underlying object in any meaningful, type-safe way. Throw in the fact that Java can't do things like output parameters, and you've got a recipe for utter frustration when dealing with native code. X| The thing that really came across to me is how polished the .NET framework feels compared to Java. The Java class libraries have a "we threw this together over time, hope you don't mind" kind of feel to them. For instance, the GUID type is a member of org.eclipse.swt.win32.ole.godknowswhat. It also appears there's a seperate GUID type in java.rmi.server.UID. Possibly another in java.rmi.dgc.VMID. X|
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
-- modified at 17:08 Monday 21st November, 2005
>And for the record, Java's interaction with native code is one of the worst abominations I've ever seen. Ummm ... isn't that because Java isn't designed to interact outside of its sandbox (or whatever the hell its called)? Is there actually much point to a Windows-only Java app? I actually plan to experiment with Java at some point (for some cross-platform development), so your comments are interesting to say the least. :)
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecott -
You're missing out on Python[^]coupled with wxPython[^]. Native looking apps with a language that is so intuitive, my girlfriend could pick it up in a matter of hours. In fact, Python is based on ABC; a language specifically developed for non-programmers. Give it a try on a free weekend. You'll be amazed at how little you actually have to fight the compiler and can actually get on with "real programming". http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0036[^] Producivity over Performance[^] Jim QTExtender - The OFFICIAL addon for QuoteTracker.
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I love your post. If I could give you multiple 5's I would. I refuse to do cross-platform coding in anything but Java (ICK!!!). However, IntelliJ is my reason for doing that. The IntelliJ IDE is just a pleasure and that's about all I can say. My hope/prayer is that Mono and Cocoa become mainstream soon but until a large entity with tons of cash gets behind that with dedication and perserverance neither of those 2 are viable ... yet. So I'll stick with Java for MAC->Win->Lin systems and for pure Windows I'll bask in the warm glo of Microsoft and know that I'm loving every minute of it. Coding in Linux/Mac makes my colon ache and that's the only way to put it. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
Do you mean Cocoa the ObjectiveC libs or the Java wrappers for Cocoa? ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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code-frog wrote:
My hope/prayer is that Mono and Cocoa become mainstream soon but until a large entity
Novell bought Ximian -- and Mono is now developed under the Novell umbrella. Novell is (still) a billion dollar corporation. Is that big enough for you.
When Mono get's legal sanction from Microsoft that they aren't going to sue the pants off of people for using Mono or Novell for developing it, then it maybe matters, until then it's a waste of effort. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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>And for the record, Java's interaction with native code is one of the worst abominations I've ever seen. Ummm ... isn't that because Java isn't designed to interact outside of its sandbox (or whatever the hell its called)? Is there actually much point to a Windows-only Java app? I actually plan to experiment with Java at some point (for some cross-platform development), so your comments are interesting to say the least. :)
The Rob Blog
Google Talk: robert.caldecottJava is meant to be run inside a sandbox. But does that give the Java library designers the liberty to totally poop on all things good and object oriented? :) I mean, couldn't we at least get some duck typing for these sort of things? Having to query an interface based on the COM object's progID is acceptable. Having to then get the resulting ID back using a array of integers 1 length long (due to Java not having output parameters) is a bit of hack and somewhat discomforting. Then having to call any method on that object using a string is error prone, tedious, and truely a pain. Here's an example that uses the Microsoft WebBrowser control COM object. Say I want to call the Navigate method on it. With Java & SWT, that would be
OleControlSite controlSite = new OleControlSite(frame, SWT.NONE, "Shell.Explorer");
OleAutomation automation = new OleAutomation(controlSite);
int[] rgdispid = automation.getIDsOfNames(new String[]{"Navigate"});
int dispIdMember = rgdispid[0];
Variant[] rgvarg = new Variant[1]; // this is the URL parameter
rgvarg[0] = new Variant("www.thecodeproject.com");
Variant pVarResult = automation.invoke(dispIdMember, rgvarg);All that for a method that takes a single string paramter. You can imagine how much uglier things get with methods with a little more complex signature. X| I used to love Java. In fact, I used to be a Java-loving Microsoft hater. :-O Things have changed.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
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You're missing out on Python[^]coupled with wxPython[^]. Native looking apps with a language that is so intuitive, my girlfriend could pick it up in a matter of hours. In fact, Python is based on ABC; a language specifically developed for non-programmers. Give it a try on a free weekend. You'll be amazed at how little you actually have to fight the compiler and can actually get on with "real programming". http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0036[^] Producivity over Performance[^] Jim QTExtender - The OFFICIAL addon for QuoteTracker.
AAntix wrote:
You'll be amazed at how little you actually have to fight the compiler and can actually get on with "real programming".
A matter of scale, really. On big projects, "fighting the compiler" actually improves productivity.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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I love your post. If I could give you multiple 5's I would. I refuse to do cross-platform coding in anything but Java (ICK!!!). However, IntelliJ is my reason for doing that. The IntelliJ IDE is just a pleasure and that's about all I can say. My hope/prayer is that Mono and Cocoa become mainstream soon but until a large entity with tons of cash gets behind that with dedication and perserverance neither of those 2 are viable ... yet. So I'll stick with Java for MAC->Win->Lin systems and for pure Windows I'll bask in the warm glo of Microsoft and know that I'm loving every minute of it. Coding in Linux/Mac makes my colon ache and that's the only way to put it. - Rex
Some assembly required. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
code-frog wrote:
Coding in Linux/Mac makes my colon ache and that's the only way to put it. - Rex
5 ! I am gonna use that expression first chance I get.
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AAntix wrote:
You'll be amazed at how little you actually have to fight the compiler and can actually get on with "real programming".
A matter of scale, really. On big projects, "fighting the compiler" actually improves productivity.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
How does it improve productivity? Jim QTExtender - The OFFICIAL addon for QuoteTracker.
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For beginners, there is A Byte of Python[^] and Dive into Python[^]; both available for free online. For more advanced topics, there is the Python Cookbook[^]. If you develop any sort of network based applications, you have to check out the Twisted framework.[^] Network communications (most high level protocols covered, HTTP, FTP, NNTP, IRC, etc) has never been easier. There's even an O'Reilly book[^] covering the framework. Last but not least, you should read the Python design philosophy.[^] Python classes are simplistic and elegant with an emphasis for ease of use _for the developer_. Jim QTExtender - The OFFICIAL addon for QuoteTracker. -- modified at 21:48 Monday 21st November, 2005
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You know, I can't believe I actually wrote that as a subject, but after the past two weeks, I just felt compelled to vent here and thank the guys at MS who put together their developer tools. I work on the Visual Component Framework in my spare time. I usually do most of the core development on Win32 using VC6 and then swing over to the Mac side to gradually port over the code to run on OSX. This is, to put it mildly, generally an exercise in extreme frustration, as those of you who have developed on other platforms may realize. For those of you who haven't developed on non-Win32 platforms, I hope the following is instructional. First, forget all the hype you read about OSX. While it's *end* user programs are good, the OS *does* look nice, and it is easy to use, I couldn't care less about any of that - because I have to *develop* on it - I'm stuck using whatever development tools can be cobbled together. OSX is designed for a certain mindset and usage pattern. It's designed (or at it seems this way to me) for people who make heavy use of a mouse as their primary input device. So creative software like Photoshop, Illustrator, Maya, etc where mouse interaction (or more than likely tablet usage) is key work very well. Keyboard intensive tasks that typically have power user shortcuts (like programming) do not. For example, the native OS doesn't recognize the HOME or End keys in any useful in most (99% ?) of the text controls. Fun. Keep one thought in mind when you develop for OSX - Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about you as a developer. When you get OSX you also get Apple's free developer tools. There has been some controversy with this because it meant that one of the other primary companies that wrote developer tools, Metrowerks, and charged for it, was being completely undercut by Apple. And on top of that the Metrowerks toolchain was signifigantly better, better, faster compiler, more robust IDE, much better debugger, etc. However the Apple IDE looks pretty, so there's always that. Apparently it's gotten bad enough that Metrowerks has dropped future support of OSX on Intel, so it's no longer a long term choice for a toolset, which means, at the moment, you're stuck with the Apple toolset. So what's so bad? Well for starters your foundation is shaky - it's based on GCC. This means compile times that are multiple times longer than VC++, and weird behaviour. For example, this last weekend most of it was spent wondering why static class functions that *used* to work, no longer did. I even made a te
Jim Crafton wrote:
I pity anyone who has to deal with this sh*t - if you're thinking about cross platform development - think twice before you jump in.
Jim, Thanks for the enlightening information, not that I had ever planed on coding for anything beyond Windows. Your experience just solidifies my feelings about some of the other platforms. Sadly I like Linux, its fun to reminisce and drop to the command line to perform tasks normally done through a UI applet.
ZeePain! wrote:
This seems like one of those programs that started small, grew incrementally, building internal pressure, and finally barfed all over its source code sneakers. Or something.
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You know, I can't believe I actually wrote that as a subject, but after the past two weeks, I just felt compelled to vent here and thank the guys at MS who put together their developer tools. I work on the Visual Component Framework in my spare time. I usually do most of the core development on Win32 using VC6 and then swing over to the Mac side to gradually port over the code to run on OSX. This is, to put it mildly, generally an exercise in extreme frustration, as those of you who have developed on other platforms may realize. For those of you who haven't developed on non-Win32 platforms, I hope the following is instructional. First, forget all the hype you read about OSX. While it's *end* user programs are good, the OS *does* look nice, and it is easy to use, I couldn't care less about any of that - because I have to *develop* on it - I'm stuck using whatever development tools can be cobbled together. OSX is designed for a certain mindset and usage pattern. It's designed (or at it seems this way to me) for people who make heavy use of a mouse as their primary input device. So creative software like Photoshop, Illustrator, Maya, etc where mouse interaction (or more than likely tablet usage) is key work very well. Keyboard intensive tasks that typically have power user shortcuts (like programming) do not. For example, the native OS doesn't recognize the HOME or End keys in any useful in most (99% ?) of the text controls. Fun. Keep one thought in mind when you develop for OSX - Apple doesn't give a rat's ass about you as a developer. When you get OSX you also get Apple's free developer tools. There has been some controversy with this because it meant that one of the other primary companies that wrote developer tools, Metrowerks, and charged for it, was being completely undercut by Apple. And on top of that the Metrowerks toolchain was signifigantly better, better, faster compiler, more robust IDE, much better debugger, etc. However the Apple IDE looks pretty, so there's always that. Apparently it's gotten bad enough that Metrowerks has dropped future support of OSX on Intel, so it's no longer a long term choice for a toolset, which means, at the moment, you're stuck with the Apple toolset. So what's so bad? Well for starters your foundation is shaky - it's based on GCC. This means compile times that are multiple times longer than VC++, and weird behaviour. For example, this last weekend most of it was spent wondering why static class functions that *used* to work, no longer did. I even made a te
As much as I love to bash Microsoft for their incomplete products and rapacious pricing, I think we have them to thank for a lot more than a fancy (if buggy) IDE. I've been around this industry, if not actively involved as a developer, for a lot longer than 90%+ of our membership, and I well remember the joys of coding in ED X| . Although Apple and others thought up the idea of a GUI for the common man, Microsoft perfected it; without that, none of us would have the cushy jobs we enjoy because there would be no such thing as a home computer. In the days before the Apple/Windows GUI we didn't have COTS applications - if you wanted your PC to actually do something, you had to write the software yourself using a text editor. The GUI was the breakthrough concept that made the PC viable, and the Visual Studio IDE was the logical extension of that paradigm. It stands to reason that, if you want to sell more copies of Windows you have to have lots of Windows-compatible programs available to buy. And to achieve that, you have to make Windows programs as easy as possible to write. Enter the Visual Studio family of products... Bravo, Microsoft, and thanks. I still hate you, but I use your products because they're the best of breed. Bravo - Well Done!:-D "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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I had a similar experience with Java this weekend. A friend asked for a Java project that talks to a COM control. So I downloaded and fired up Borland's JBuilder and the open source Eclipse IDE. Both are quite laughable compared to Visual Studio. JBuilder was alright, but frustrating at times. Eclipse was absolute junk, I was cursing at it several times an hour; I don't know how people continue on with that crap. The breakpoints were rather tedius. Rather than clicking on the line of code to the left, I would have to right-click, toggle breakpoint. Ok, no biggie if you know the shortcut key. But the IDE does these little figure-out-what's-wrong in the background before you compile, so if you have an incomplete line of code that would issue a warning or error, Eclipse politely covers the bookmarked icon with a "you did something wrong" icon, so you cannot tell whether it is a breakpoint. The context menu just says "toggle breakpoint", which also gives no clue as to whether the line of code is a breakpoint. And for the record, Java's interaction with native code is one of the worst abominations I've ever seen. Basically what it comes down to with the Ole automation stuff is you're coding with strings and lots of ugly methods. oleAutomation.getIdsOfNames("myMethod")[0].invoke(). You can't actually deal with the underlying object in any meaningful, type-safe way. Throw in the fact that Java can't do things like output parameters, and you've got a recipe for utter frustration when dealing with native code. X| The thing that really came across to me is how polished the .NET framework feels compared to Java. The Java class libraries have a "we threw this together over time, hope you don't mind" kind of feel to them. For instance, the GUID type is a member of org.eclipse.swt.win32.ole.godknowswhat. It also appears there's a seperate GUID type in java.rmi.server.UID. Possibly another in java.rmi.dgc.VMID. X|
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango
-- modified at 17:08 Monday 21st November, 2005
Judah Himango wrote:
Both are quite laughable compared to Visual Studio. JBuilder was alright, but frustrating at times. Eclipse was absolute junk,
Eclipse is one of the best editors out there and honestly VS IDE probably doesn't even have 1/10th of the functionality of Eclipse. Once you get used to Eclipse, you will hate VS with passion. But of course, there are people who test it for about 10 minutes and then decide that one of the most popular and powerful IDEs out there is a junk. Mustafa Demirhan http://www.macroangel.com
"What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Gladiator
It's not that I'm lazy, it's just that I just don't care -
Judah Himango wrote:
Both are quite laughable compared to Visual Studio. JBuilder was alright, but frustrating at times. Eclipse was absolute junk,
Eclipse is one of the best editors out there and honestly VS IDE probably doesn't even have 1/10th of the functionality of Eclipse. Once you get used to Eclipse, you will hate VS with passion. But of course, there are people who test it for about 10 minutes and then decide that one of the most popular and powerful IDEs out there is a junk. Mustafa Demirhan http://www.macroangel.com
"What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Gladiator
It's not that I'm lazy, it's just that I just don't careMy main problem with it was the sluggishness. For example, it takes a few seconds for auto-complete just to pop up; by the time it pops up, I could've already typed the variable or method myself. X| Also, the "Add a class" dialog is junk. I just want to add a class and start coding, not go through some dialog that makes me type the superclass, virtuals, overrides...
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My main problem with it was the sluggishness. For example, it takes a few seconds for auto-complete just to pop up; by the time it pops up, I could've already typed the variable or method myself. X| Also, the "Add a class" dialog is junk. I just want to add a class and start coding, not go through some dialog that makes me type the superclass, virtuals, overrides...
You can change the delay for the auto-complete dialog. Just open the preferences and you will see it. Regarding the Add a class dialog: Eclipse doesn't force you to add superclass information or anything else. You don't even know what you are talking about. You can simply type the class name, hit enter and there you go: you are in your new class code with no superclasses or anything. Having these options doesnt make the IDE junk - it makes it better. Mustafa Demirhan http://www.macroangel.com
"What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Gladiator
It's not that I'm lazy, it's just that I just don't care -
You can change the delay for the auto-complete dialog. Just open the preferences and you will see it. Regarding the Add a class dialog: Eclipse doesn't force you to add superclass information or anything else. You don't even know what you are talking about. You can simply type the class name, hit enter and there you go: you are in your new class code with no superclasses or anything. Having these options doesnt make the IDE junk - it makes it better. Mustafa Demirhan http://www.macroangel.com
"What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Gladiator
It's not that I'm lazy, it's just that I just don't careThanks for the info on the auto-complete. I'll try it out. My mistake if its just an adjustment to be made. I still stand by my assertion that add a class dialog is bad design. If I can just add everything in the code itself, there's little point in (indeed, it takes longer to) fill out a form. Debugging was painful. Maybe I'm just not used to it, but I the restart functionality wasn't working well, I had to manually stop and start again, otherwise it was using apparently old code, or would say the file was already being debugged. Also, read some posts above where I mention some of the problems I ran into with Eclipse (such as the line warning with breakpoint issue). The experience as a whole led me fleeing back to Visual Studio. Maybe that's just me. It's nothing to get religious about, just my honest experience.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Bought a House! Judah Himango