Is C++ dead?
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There is little doubt that the dotNET family of languages has made a big splash and many people have switched. I think it is premature to declare C++ dead however. I was having a look at the apps on my machine the other day and virtually none of them use dotNET. I find this somewhat confusing - On the one hand, judging by the excitement in the developer community surrounding the dotNET platform you would think it is a huge success, but it has yet to make it to my desktop. I also find myself concerned by the memory usage and efficiency of dotNET programs - I too have been programming for a long time and I often find myself amazed at the sheer amount of system resources consumed by a program that performs a seemingly simple task - The dotNET platform takes this too the next level. If there are two programs that do the same thing (equally as well) I'll choose the one that's most efficient - This will be the C++ one! I also find that templates, STL and Boost take C++ to the next level - A level which, in many ways, C# and its ilk can't match (yet?). The lack of multiple inheritance frustrates me also. It is often stated that the classes and their relationships should model the problem you're solving closely - The lack of MI makes this impossible in many cases, the real word ain't just a simple tree. As a program gets larger and more complicated the complexities of the program itself start swamping the language difficulties. This doesn't mean that the efficiency of the language used is not important - Just that shit is shit in any language. That said, for the most part, I'm sticking with C++! Steve
dotNET and Java are no doubt big and will continue to grow in the business software area. It would be equally insane to develop a Oracle based insurance settlement application in C++, as it would be to develop a software PBX in C#/Java. The problem is most of the jobs are in the business software area, which means fewer opportunities for C++ developers. Our company and most of our competitors use C++, we have no plans of moving to a managed platform at the moment. Vivek
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I agree with you that so many of the common apps we use are still (and likely to stay) unmanaged apps. The question is, will it stay that way? 80-90% of the apps (and thus jobs) are not your typical desktop apps, though. For everyone but Microsoft, Adobe, and a select group of lower level apps (CD Burning apps, etc..) does it even make sense to write unmanaged apps anymore? ("unmanaged" here simply means non-native, that could be Java, .NET, Perl, Python, Ruby, Tcl/TK, etc..) Managed libraries are now far more extensive than their old unmanaged counterparts. the .NET framework DWARFS MFC or the VCL or what have you. Like I said, I'm just kind of depressed that I look around for C++ jobs, and all i'm seeing are either embedded or low-level (drivers) work, or maintenance jobs.... -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
Managed libraries are now far more extensive than their old unmanaged counterparts
I'm not sure about this: There are literally 1000s of C/C++ libraries. In fact this is probably an understatement. Don't get me wrong here - This, for the most part, isn't because C/C++ is superior, just older. If you only use the libraries that come with your compiler you are correct but doing this ignores a mass of quality code you can use (and more you'd be best to stay away from). Steve
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I wouldn't see it being one of the top language of the future, things move on, I reckon they .net framework is the future for windows develop and maybe C# being one of the top langauges to develop with, maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong, but look at it this way, microsoft are not going to drop .net in the near future, they've but far too much investment. Some of the layers of the Windows O/S are rumoured to be written in C#, infact C# is being used to develop new apps in Microsoft. Maybe the C++ clan will tell you different, people want to hang on to all their knowlegde investment on a particular language but sometimes you have to let go and move on or risk being left behind like. Blogless
I asked a conference speaker a few weeks back if Microsoft ate its own dog food by producing any applications with .NET. His reply was yes and no. Yes, some internal tools and one small part of BizTalk Server (I think it was BizTalk) but otherwise no. I don't see Office, Visual Studio or any of their main applications being written in .NET and not for a very long time either. (I am a .NET developer BTW so I am for it rather than biased against it.) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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I go back with C++ a LONG way, not quite to the cfront days, but close. I moved away from it for a few years, working mostly with .NET and ASP (something I swore i'd never do). I'm looking around now, and I'm seeing almost NO activity on the C++ front anymore. Very few jobs available, and fewer tools and articles. I know there's still a strong C++ contingent here on Code Project, but honestly? Is this a dead horse? Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that C and C++ will probably always have a VERY strong presence the unmanaged world, but that world seems to be shrinking daily. I'm seeing more desktop apps written in Java and .NET, and web based apps are starting to replace many of teh classic desktop apps. I feel like such a dinosaur. Oh, granted, i've got updated skills in Java and .NET, so maybe it's a dinosaur with sunglasses. Is this what COBOL developers feel like? So, i've been contemplating trying to get more work in native code, but i'm just not sure... What are your opinions? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
I think we have to remember there are two distinct markets in software development. Shrinkwrap like Microsoft does and bespoke for internal, business applications. I think the former is still C++ dominated while the later is the ripest for .NET/Java/etc. They have different needs and environments which is why there is such a rift in stats between the two. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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I think we have to remember there are two distinct markets in software development. Shrinkwrap like Microsoft does and bespoke for internal, business applications. I think the former is still C++ dominated while the later is the ripest for .NET/Java/etc. They have different needs and environments which is why there is such a rift in stats between the two. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Fair point. Steve
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I go back with C++ a LONG way, not quite to the cfront days, but close. I moved away from it for a few years, working mostly with .NET and ASP (something I swore i'd never do). I'm looking around now, and I'm seeing almost NO activity on the C++ front anymore. Very few jobs available, and fewer tools and articles. I know there's still a strong C++ contingent here on Code Project, but honestly? Is this a dead horse? Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that C and C++ will probably always have a VERY strong presence the unmanaged world, but that world seems to be shrinking daily. I'm seeing more desktop apps written in Java and .NET, and web based apps are starting to replace many of teh classic desktop apps. I feel like such a dinosaur. Oh, granted, i've got updated skills in Java and .NET, so maybe it's a dinosaur with sunglasses. Is this what COBOL developers feel like? So, i've been contemplating trying to get more work in native code, but i'm just not sure... What are your opinions? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
:rolleyes:
-Prakash
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:rolleyes:
-Prakash
Actually, he is. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Actually, he is. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Paul Watson wrote:
Actually, he is.
Oh! too bad. I guess he was outdated.
-Prakash
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I go back with C++ a LONG way, not quite to the cfront days, but close. I moved away from it for a few years, working mostly with .NET and ASP (something I swore i'd never do). I'm looking around now, and I'm seeing almost NO activity on the C++ front anymore. Very few jobs available, and fewer tools and articles. I know there's still a strong C++ contingent here on Code Project, but honestly? Is this a dead horse? Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that C and C++ will probably always have a VERY strong presence the unmanaged world, but that world seems to be shrinking daily. I'm seeing more desktop apps written in Java and .NET, and web based apps are starting to replace many of teh classic desktop apps. I feel like such a dinosaur. Oh, granted, i've got updated skills in Java and .NET, so maybe it's a dinosaur with sunglasses. Is this what COBOL developers feel like? So, i've been contemplating trying to get more work in native code, but i'm just not sure... What are your opinions? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Adding to other replies, don't forget microcontrollers, signal processors, etc.
We say "get a life" to each other, disappointed or jokingly. What we forget, though, is that this is possibly the most destructive advice you can give to a geek.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist -
I asked a conference speaker a few weeks back if Microsoft ate its own dog food by producing any applications with .NET. His reply was yes and no. Yes, some internal tools and one small part of BizTalk Server (I think it was BizTalk) but otherwise no. I don't see Office, Visual Studio or any of their main applications being written in .NET and not for a very long time either. (I am a .NET developer BTW so I am for it rather than biased against it.) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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I heard, that PhotoStory was written in C#, and some components on other applications are being written in C#, I don't thing any of the mainstream apps are written in C# (yet!). A large part of Visual Studio is written using C# - so I heard. Blogless
Also as Brian pointed out to me the Avalon... sorry, Windows Presentation Foundation designer tools (Spark and Cider) are done in .NET. I'd love to see some evidence of a "large part of Visual Studio is written using C#" as that would be Microsoft betting serious money on .NET. Otherwise none of the above really counts, they are minor/limited apps. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Paul Watson wrote:
Actually, he is.
Oh! too bad. I guess he was outdated.
-Prakash
Elvis is dead but the King lives on. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Also as Brian pointed out to me the Avalon... sorry, Windows Presentation Foundation designer tools (Spark and Cider) are done in .NET. I'd love to see some evidence of a "large part of Visual Studio is written using C#" as that would be Microsoft betting serious money on .NET. Otherwise none of the above really counts, they are minor/limited apps. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Paul Watson wrote:
I'd love to see some evidence of a "large part of Visual Studio is written using C#" as that would be Microsoft betting serious money on .NET. Otherwise none of the above really counts, they are minor/limited apps.
Just use Spyxx.exe and you'll see :) Also to add a large part of SQL Server 2005 Management Server GUI is written in .net (possibly C#). More of it around than we actually thing, just show the route which Microsoft are takening. Blogless
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I go back with C++ a LONG way, not quite to the cfront days, but close. I moved away from it for a few years, working mostly with .NET and ASP (something I swore i'd never do). I'm looking around now, and I'm seeing almost NO activity on the C++ front anymore. Very few jobs available, and fewer tools and articles. I know there's still a strong C++ contingent here on Code Project, but honestly? Is this a dead horse? Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that C and C++ will probably always have a VERY strong presence the unmanaged world, but that world seems to be shrinking daily. I'm seeing more desktop apps written in Java and .NET, and web based apps are starting to replace many of teh classic desktop apps. I feel like such a dinosaur. Oh, granted, i've got updated skills in Java and .NET, so maybe it's a dinosaur with sunglasses. Is this what COBOL developers feel like? So, i've been contemplating trying to get more work in native code, but i'm just not sure... What are your opinions? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
We're still totally C++ here (developing Console games, where you need every bit of performance and memory you can get!) I've written a single tool in C# (as it was the quick and easy way, and I didn't feel like fighting with MFC to get an image in a window) but everything else tools side is still C++ (mostly because we've got a huge pool of well proven internal library code that nobody wants to ditch) -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit! Buzzwords!
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Paul Watson wrote:
I'd love to see some evidence of a "large part of Visual Studio is written using C#" as that would be Microsoft betting serious money on .NET. Otherwise none of the above really counts, they are minor/limited apps.
Just use Spyxx.exe and you'll see :) Also to add a large part of SQL Server 2005 Management Server GUI is written in .net (possibly C#). More of it around than we actually thing, just show the route which Microsoft are takening. Blogless
Why isn't Microsoft being more vocal about these developments? Surely if such major tools as VS2005 and SQL Server 2005 Management Server have strong .NET elements they should be publicised and turned into case-studies to further .NET's case? I'd like to see what challenges and solutions these development teams met and came up with. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Why isn't Microsoft being more vocal about these developments? Surely if such major tools as VS2005 and SQL Server 2005 Management Server have strong .NET elements they should be publicised and turned into case-studies to further .NET's case? I'd like to see what challenges and solutions these development teams met and came up with. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Good point, I reckon they are testing the water. I had few .net exceptions being throw using the SQL Server 2005 Mangament Studio, rather than the error being handling nicely its seems they are being throw straight to screen. I would expect to see a few patches to fix this. Overall it's a nice product considering the GUI is .net. Blogless
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Also as Brian pointed out to me the Avalon... sorry, Windows Presentation Foundation designer tools (Spark and Cider) are done in .NET. I'd love to see some evidence of a "large part of Visual Studio is written using C#" as that would be Microsoft betting serious money on .NET. Otherwise none of the above really counts, they are minor/limited apps. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Paul Watson wrote:
I'd love to see some evidence of a "large part of Visual Studio is written using C#" as that would be Microsoft betting serious money on .NET.
You mean the slow speed, frequent crashes and rubbish UI weren't enough evidence :-D Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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Actually, he is. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Paul Watson wrote:
Actually, he is.
My mate Elvis is dead? Oh good god. Why didn't anybody tell me sooner? :(( ;P Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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I go back with C++ a LONG way, not quite to the cfront days, but close. I moved away from it for a few years, working mostly with .NET and ASP (something I swore i'd never do). I'm looking around now, and I'm seeing almost NO activity on the C++ front anymore. Very few jobs available, and fewer tools and articles. I know there's still a strong C++ contingent here on Code Project, but honestly? Is this a dead horse? Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that C and C++ will probably always have a VERY strong presence the unmanaged world, but that world seems to be shrinking daily. I'm seeing more desktop apps written in Java and .NET, and web based apps are starting to replace many of teh classic desktop apps. I feel like such a dinosaur. Oh, granted, i've got updated skills in Java and .NET, so maybe it's a dinosaur with sunglasses. Is this what COBOL developers feel like? So, i've been contemplating trying to get more work in native code, but i'm just not sure... What are your opinions? -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
NO C++ wont die but yeh developers need to lear the Managed Way of coding , any how After year's is see future of Multiplatform programing bright :cool: Vikas Amin Embin Technology Bombay
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Paul Watson wrote:
Actually, he is.
My mate Elvis is dead? Oh good god. Why didn't anybody tell me sooner? :(( ;P Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Elvis was your mate :| I thought you were younger than that ;) regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!