Women in IT
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First, the following is not directed at Qomi, but is directed at people that believe the crap that the cited article represents. What a pathetic piece of crackpot (for lack of a better term) journalism. Paraphrasing - "Women don't go into IT because of the geek factor." Well, women don't go into garbage pickup because they' don't want to haul other people's shit around all day too. Why? Because it's not "glamourous" work, either. Why does everyone feel the need to push people into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified for? You want glamour? Be a freakin super model. You wanna be in IT? Be a programmer. But don't come whining to me about your freaking career choices or the fact that you think you were coerced into NOT choosing a more lucrative education. So what - you're black, asian, white, mexican, female, male, handicapped, blind, deaf, or lost most of your epidermal layer in a fiery car crash. Big fuckin deal. If you're qualified to do the job, and you want the job, then go out and get the damned job. Just don't sit there sniveling about how you thought all programmers where white male geeks with bad skin and no life, so you figured it wasn't for you. We all have the freedom to make our own choices, and and you made yours, so live with it or change. Adapt. Conquer. But don't you dare shed a tear for what might have been. What a pile of dog guano. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Very eloquently put John, and (believe it or not) I agree with you on this one. As far as I'm concerned pushing people into a career they have no interest in is the worst kind of social bulls**t - my point was simply that gender, background and social conditioning do affect the way we look at ourselves and our future - whether we like it or not. Fortunately, it's much less of an issue than it used to be. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
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"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Agree with this too. Although, it would be more accurate to say "Some cartoons rock". Too true. I should have said 'cartoons have the potential to rock' It's time for Animaniacs..... Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
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No this isn't a geek specific dating resource :laugh: Due to the frequency of comments about female co-workers, I thought I'd post it... The final frontier: Women in IT "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
I was a Math major in college, so I can't speak for the computer science courses, There were not many women especially in the upper division classes. There would only be 1 or 2 other women taking the class. Only two of the many math courses I took were taught by women. These two were my favorite ones. In the first, Calculus, she talked me into wanting to be a math professor. Of course that's not where I ended up but that's another story. She was definately my mentor. The other one, Number Theory, was my second favorite teacher. Of course quite a few of my male teachers also took me under their wing. I don't know what my point is, except that things are changing. I think 20 years ago, there were hardly any women in math. 20 years from now, we won't see any gender discrpancies at all. The more women go into a field, the more are available to mentor the one's coming in. It's not that men didn't try to mentor me. I just didn't really see my life being able to be like their life. For example, the female Calculus teacher that inspired me had was pregnant. So she showed me that I could do that job and have a family too. The male teacher had a wife that stayed home to take care of his kids. I figured I probably wasn't going to be able to have one of those since I'm not attracted to women. I don't really know, but just from looking around, it seemed like there were a lot more women in computer science courses than in math courses. Sorry for rambling on and not really going anywhere. Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
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Andy Metcalfe wrote: Never underestimate the power of social conditioning - like it or not, we're all guided by the way we're brought up and the society we live in. Um, hello, I know this is the Internet, the wasteland of debates, but did you even read my post before jumping at the Reply link? To quote myself: Women need to stop blaming everyone else for their (perceived) troubles. Replace "Women" with "People" and you have my reply. --Mike-- My really out-of-date homepage "Hey, you wanna go to the Espresso Pump and get sugared up on mochas?" -- Willow Rosenberg Sonork - 100.10414 AcidHelm Big fan of Alyson Hannigan.
Michael, unfortunately I didn't have time to respond to your post in as much detail as I'd like (we were in the middle of a code merge f**k-up at work :(), so forgive me for missing a few points. Maybe I should have emphasised that I don't agree with the viewpoint of the author of the article - people make their own choices and no amount of whining about it by social so called "experts" will change that. So as for women (or any other group) blaming other groups for their trouble - that's just whinging, and won't change a thing. Doing something constructive as an individual will - if enough people do it. Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote: Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. We can get Cartoon Network in the UK too now (at least via Cable/Satellite). Courage the Cowardly Dog is one of my favourites too! Of course there's Boomarang too for the older stuff - remember Wacky Races and Catch the Pigeon? They're back... :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
What a crock of shit. The world is full of bleeding-heart liberals tghat think being PC will cure the world's problems. What we need are people who simply user their brains for something more than a media-driven illusion of reality. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Read my other reply John. I've got no time for PC crap either. ;) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
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Qomi, here are my criteria for working with fellow IT people: 1. Are they enthusiastic, willing to learn, share knowledge and push themselves? 2. Can they code and grasp concepts quite quickly 3. If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? 4. Do they have other things in their life apart from IT? (my preference is Yes) and that is about it. So whether you are female/male, blue/green, three eyed or just the usual two, I won't let it affect the working relationship. I wonder if I would think diferently about there being not such a huge problem between male and female IT people if I was female. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: If you meet them at the pub do you get along or do they sip their Schnapps and regard you with an icy glare? Ha - I've worked with a few of that type (though replace 'schnapps' with 'vodka' and it would be more accurate) In a perfect world I'd love to have people like this to work with. In reality I am happy to have someone who you can rely on to do their share in a timely and effective manner. cheers, Chris Maunder
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No this isn't a geek specific dating resource :laugh: Due to the frequency of comments about female co-workers, I thought I'd post it... The final frontier: Women in IT "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
About 6 months ago I started writing an article on women in IT based on the readership at CodeProject. A couple of helpful lasses wrote back with some great info but I then became so disallusioned with attitudes to women in IT that I put the whole thing on the backburner. Guess it's time for me to pull it out and write it up properly. Qomi - interested in giving me your 2c? cheers, Chris Maunder
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Vivek Rajan wrote: Why should (3) and (4) matter in a IT co-worker? In (4), Would it be ok if their "other" activities were contrary to what you might consider acceptable ? For me in addition to (1) and (2), I would like to work with people who are honest about work issues (dont intentionally overlook bugs, etc). I really have no problem if they dont want to have a drink with me, lunch with me, or talk non-work issues with me. They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers. I think the general reply to your position is: "I manage people and work in teams. If the guy is an asseole but a great programmer, I don't want him around. He will cause more problems than he is worth." I work very closely with people in my work and not all of it is "how do I do this function or access that interface?". A lot of it is ideas and concepts which need someone who is willing to talk to you and you can get on with it. Look at Richard Branson, pretty successful guy. He goes out and gets rat faced with his employees. Look at his employees, quite a happy, well motivated and successful bunch. Additionally as I have said before computers are not my life and in fact I don't even have one at home, out of choice. So I would like to be able to relate to co-workers outside of pure technical terms. e.g. Sports, movies, books, science etc. Computers are not everything. Vivek Rajan wrote: They just cant be my buddies, but are perfectly acceptable co-workers That is called "old world thinking" IMHO. That is how the big old bad companies were run and frankly that is not a life, that is a souless entity. I would rather be a bit less successful but having a good time with good people than be more successful and hating everyone I work with. Good relationships are so key to good work environments. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: I think the general reply to your position is: "I manage people and work in teams. If the guy is an asseole but a great programmer, I don't want him around. He will cause more problems than he is worth." I If the guy conformed to points (1 and 2) and was honest, what makes him an asshole ? Surely, he has the _right_ not to want to have drinks with you, or talk about golf/football, or girls. Surely, he cant be fired for that reason only. I guess there will always be diverse folks, some social/some anti-social, some can take a joke/some others get offended easily, some enjoy company after work/some other look forward to just going home, some smile all the time/ some smirk all the time. I guess we have to learn to just accomodate these differences _at_work_. Again, we dont have to love them, just accomodate them. However, I do agree with you - if we only have "professional" attitudes at work, it would make for a boring and plastic work environment. Later- Vivek
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Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. Regards, Alvaro
I used to get someone in the US to tape Kids WB for me, for Animaniacs. I love the older cartoons as well, I especially love the few WB did with a family of three bears and the kid is huge and stupid. I dunno if Powerpuff girls plays here, but the merchandise has certainly landed. Never heard of the other two though. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Here in Canada, we have Teletoon. My favs on it are (in the order in which they appear) Dilbert, Oblongs, Mission Hill, Undergrads, & Quads. "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
Hmmm, I think they actually play Dilbert on Saturday mornings here, on some network channel. I've never seen it -- Saturday mornings I use to get some sleep from being up all Friday night ;-). Regards, Alvaro
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Alvaro Mendez wrote: Here in the States we have a cable channel called Cartoon Network. They play some of ancient-but-great cartoons from Warner Bros (Bugs, Daffy, etc) and MGM (Tom & Jerry) but they also produce their own original stuff. Some of it sucks but some of it rocks. My favorites are Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, and Courage the Cowardly Dog. I'm curious to know if they've made it to Australia yet. We can get Cartoon Network in the UK too now (at least via Cable/Satellite). Courage the Cowardly Dog is one of my favourites too! Of course there's Boomarang too for the older stuff - remember Wacky Races and Catch the Pigeon? They're back... :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul WatsonCourage rocks! My favorite episode is the one with the evil Eggplants. Remember when he asks his computer how to get rid of them? I wish I could remember the exact dialog, but I just found it hilarious! :laugh: Regards, Alvaro
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Looking at Law in England the proportion of Women Lawyers coming out of Law School (after passing Solicitors finals) was very low until relatively recently because it was seen as a Male dominated profession I think. These days the situation seems to be quite the reverse. So I guess I'm saying that once the hurdle rate is passed you won't be able to move for female programmers, and they'll be writing articles about Men in IT! I don't personally mind if I sit next to a girl or a boy, unless he's the stereo typical programmer referred to earlier!!!
Alex wrote: Looking at Law in England the proportion of Women Lawyers coming out of Law School (after passing Solicitors finals) was very low until relatively recently because it was seen as a Male dominated profession I think. These days the situation seems to be quite the reverse. A few years back I dated a barrister (a fellow re-enactor in the same group I was a member of), so I've heard loads of pretty damn strange stories about the Law profession in the UK....and believe me, this industry seems much less stressful. :) Mind you, how many people can say they've had a sword fight in the gardens at Harrow Law Courts? She has...:O Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
Here in Canada, we have Teletoon. My favs on it are (in the order in which they appear) Dilbert, Oblongs, Mission Hill, Undergrads, & Quads. "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
I saw the Dilbert cartoon a few times, but I think it loses something. Now the BOOKS on the other hand are priceless, and although I love just the cartoons, my vote for funniest book ever is 'The Dilbert Future'. If you don't own it, leave your PC now, go to a bookstore and buy it. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Hmmm, I think they actually play Dilbert on Saturday mornings here, on some network channel. I've never seen it -- Saturday mornings I use to get some sleep from being up all Friday night ;-). Regards, Alvaro
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About 6 months ago I started writing an article on women in IT based on the readership at CodeProject. A couple of helpful lasses wrote back with some great info but I then became so disallusioned with attitudes to women in IT that I put the whole thing on the backburner. Guess it's time for me to pull it out and write it up properly. Qomi - interested in giving me your 2c? cheers, Chris Maunder
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Courage rocks! My favorite episode is the one with the evil Eggplants. Remember when he asks his computer how to get rid of them? I wish I could remember the exact dialog, but I just found it hilarious! :laugh: Regards, Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote: Courage rocks! My favorite episode is the one with the evil Eggplants. Remember when he asks his computer how to get rid of them? I wish I could remember the exact dialog, but I just found it hilarious! Funnily enough, that's the episode that was in my mind when I read your post...:-D I just love the villains on that show too - Le Quack cracks me up every time. :laugh: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson -
About 6 months ago I started writing an article on women in IT based on the readership at CodeProject. A couple of helpful lasses wrote back with some great info but I then became so disallusioned with attitudes to women in IT that I put the whole thing on the backburner. Guess it's time for me to pull it out and write it up properly. Qomi - interested in giving me your 2c? cheers, Chris Maunder
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I was a Math major in college, so I can't speak for the computer science courses, There were not many women especially in the upper division classes. There would only be 1 or 2 other women taking the class. Only two of the many math courses I took were taught by women. These two were my favorite ones. In the first, Calculus, she talked me into wanting to be a math professor. Of course that's not where I ended up but that's another story. She was definately my mentor. The other one, Number Theory, was my second favorite teacher. Of course quite a few of my male teachers also took me under their wing. I don't know what my point is, except that things are changing. I think 20 years ago, there were hardly any women in math. 20 years from now, we won't see any gender discrpancies at all. The more women go into a field, the more are available to mentor the one's coming in. It's not that men didn't try to mentor me. I just didn't really see my life being able to be like their life. For example, the female Calculus teacher that inspired me had was pregnant. So she showed me that I could do that job and have a family too. The male teacher had a wife that stayed home to take care of his kids. I figured I probably wasn't going to be able to have one of those since I'm not attracted to women. I don't really know, but just from looking around, it seemed like there were a lot more women in computer science courses than in math courses. Sorry for rambling on and not really going anywhere. Cathy Life's uncertain, have dessert first!
Cathy wrote: "20 years from now, we won't see any gender discrpancies at all. " I totally agree. As for the mentor bit, how nice for you. I only had one female teacher and unless she was one of those that are harder on the ones she liked, she hated me. :laugh: I never did understand why. My only logical guess might be religious prejudice, as she was/is a christian and I am not. Please, before anyone jumps, I realize that not all christians are like that, but I have met quite a few who are. "No one knows what power lies yet undeveloped in that wiry system of mine." Ada Lovelace 1815-1852
