C# Downgrade

BlameUS

And screws have an advantage of being able to do OTHER things as well, such as offering better security,... One more thing it does better than a hammer: break into other peoples' houses (security) ;P

Christopher Lord

George wrote: Obviously it's a downgrade to go from the general purpose language to the one that is only good for certain job. But the job it does do, it does far better than the general tool. You can use a hammer to put a screw in, but why when you can use a tool designed to solve the problem. So its an ideological thing then? General-use tools are better than more focused tools all the time, so the focused tools are not needed? I would prefer building a site up from a focused language like ASP or C# over C++, even factoring in the extra performance. George wrote: My guess is that you are just trolling... Its a valid question with which I intend to use to understand why you think c# is a downgrade. I see it as a more focused tool, with which one can solve a sub-set of problems more efficently, just like a screwdriver So the analogy is still valid. // Rock

Nish Nishant

Well all your arguments are also applicable to VB then. Would you then say that moving to VB is NOT a downgrade too? Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

Christopher Lord

****Christian Graus wrote: What can C# do that C++ does not ? It allows the programmer to do a subset of problems with greater ease out of the box. This is a valid reason to choose c# for a project. // Rock

Nish Nishant

VB makes it even more easier, especially VB.NET. Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

Christian Graus

Nish [BusterBoy] wrote: Nothing. Though if the question were reversed, there must be several thing C++ can do that C# cannot! Generics for a start. Optimised memory management, because it's under your control. I could go on, but we both know what I'm going to say... Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christian Graus

CLaW wrote: It allows the programmer to do a subset of problems with greater ease out of the box. This is a valid reason to choose c# for a project. So you agree my analogy is a better one than yours - it's capable of doing a subset of the things C++ can, with greater ease ( assuming the programmer is inexperienced, otherwise I'm sure they'd have some code in their toolkit to ease the difference ). As Stroustrup says making programming easy by stopping people from making the common mistakes does not teach them to program, it only increases the size of the istakes they eventually make. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christopher Lord

That depends on what your going to use it for of course. VB is good for rapid prototyping, and I have used it for this purpose with good results. Its also a good gateway language into programming in general, and many people I know, including myself, learned to program from some version of basic. It is a downgrade from C++, however, in terms of performance and 'closeness' to the metal. But really, it is not a downgrade across the board, is it now? // Rock

Christian Graus

kfc wrote: such as offering better security,... Better security from M$ ? Bwhahahahahahahahaha !!!! Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christopher Lord

Ah yes, but it isnt the same syntax, making it less efficent. I always put in ;'s in ASP, for example, and must remove them afterwards. // Rock

Christopher Lord

****Christian Graus wrote: So you agree my analogy is a better one than yours - it's capable of doing a subset of the things C++ can, with greater ease Well, it may be better for you, and mine for myself. But the idea is the same, really. A screwdriver solves a sub-set of the problems a hammer can solve by integrating many of the techniques hammer users typically employ (I know, thats not completely acurate in the real world of screws and nails, but look at the underlying statement please). ****Christian Graus wrote: assuming the programmer is inexperienced, otherwise I'm sure they'd have some code in their toolkit to ease the difference even still. I am not going to write a full c++ toolkit for things that already exist (hopefully...) fully tested by a huge company. After many years, I might get a piece-meal collection of classes that I always use, but for small projects that dont need the generality of C++, it doesnt make sense to use it, inexperienced or not... ****Christian Graus wrote: As Stroustrup says making programming easy by stopping people from making the common mistakes does not teach them to program, it only increases the size of the istakes they eventually make. And I Agree. // Rock

BlameUS

********* kfc wrote: such as offering better security,... Better security from M$ ? Bwhahahahahahahahaha !!!! ********* It was taken from the original post, I didn't write that :((

Christian Graus

CLaW wrote: Well, it may be better for you, and mine for myself. But the idea is the same, really. A screwdriver solves a sub-set of the problems a hammer can solve by integrating many of the techniques hammer users typically employ (I know, thats not completely acurate in the real world of screws and nails, but look at the underlying statement please). The underlying statement works better when you compare a toolkit to a screwdriver - a hammer cannot drive in a screw without making a mess of it. But we're splitting hairs. CLaW wrote: Christian Graus wrote: As Stroustrup says making programming easy by stopping people from making the common mistakes does not teach them to program, it only increases the size of the istakes they eventually make. And I Agree. So you regard C# as useful as a source of entertainment ? Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christian Graus

I know, I just didn't notice it until you brought it to my attention... Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christopher Lord

****Christian Graus wrote: The underlying statement works better when you compare a toolkit to a screwdriver - a hammer cannot drive in a screw without making a mess of it. But we're splitting hairs. ok, if you are working on a specific box with a certain screw, would you rather have the toolkit or just have a screwdriver you already know will solve the problem? Is that a downgrade? perhaps, but its still a better way of doing things. ****Christian Graus wrote: So you regard C# as useful as a source of entertainment ? No, I think I will be making MANY websites with it in the future. Most definately COMPLETELY surplanting my ASP development. I might also make applications which can integrate with these websites with C#. For instance, a program that uses a web service to check for new posts to a forum, popping a ballon up from the tray when new things happen. // Rock

George

CLaW wrote: But the job it does do, it does far better than the general tool. As far as I can see C# didn't do any job yet, it's hardly even released since an official release is still couple weeks in the future. CLaW wrote: You can use a hammer to put a screw in, but why when you can use a tool designed to solve the problem. You are still not understandind the difference between C# and C++ or even the difference between hammer and screwdriver. I think you are missing the point because you focus on the screws too much. In the end it's not the point to use the screws but rather to join and consolidate some part of construction. You only have a screws and a screwdriver with C#, while I will have a whole toolset with C++ and I will use the screwdriver with screws or a hammer with nails when apropriate. I may even use nites, which your screwdriver can't support at all Hell, I will use the glue when I feel suitable and I can even use rope to hold things tight if I want to. You will be still stuck with your screws because all you have it's screws and the only tool is your screwdriver. That is what make a difference: the flexibility of generic tool will always outgrow canned solution. In the end my contruction using C++ will be much better than yours using C#, each and every time. CLaW wrote: I see it as a more focused tool, with which one can solve a sub-set of problems more efficently C# is a solution looking for the problem. It's a buble and it's ought to burst into nothing...

Christian Graus

CLaW wrote: ok, if you are working on a specific box with a certain screw, would you rather have the toolkit or just have a screwdriver you already know will solve the problem? Is that a downgrade? perhaps, but its still a better way of doing things. If the toolkit *contained* a screwdriver that did the job just as well, and in some way gave me more control over the process ( yours is an electric screwdriver with one speed, mine has 10 ), then no, I'd prefer the toolit. Even if the screwdrivers were the same, I'd prefer not to rely on needing one specific tool every time I needed to do a job. CLaW wrote: No, I think I will be making MANY websites with it in the future. Most definately COMPLETELY surplanting my ASP development. I might also make applications which can integrate with these websites with C#. For instance, a program that uses a web service to check for new posts to a forum, popping a ballon up from the tray when new things happen. Oh, well, that's another story. I'm sure C# is an upgrade on asp. I'm just wondering how long it will take to find out about the security holes in C# powered websites. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christopher Lord

Thankyou for the insighful comments... George wrote: As far as I can see C# didn't do any job yet, it's hardly even released since an official release is still couple weeks in the future. I guess the RTM build on MSDN is just a big mistake... Perhaps you should inform microsoft that they have let their product on the market a couple of weeks early? George wrote: You are still not understandind the difference between C# and C++ or even the difference between hammer and screwdriver. I understand the difference quite well. I work with C++ every day for 8-12 hours a day (thus is the life of a small contract programmer, oh for the cushy office programming job...) And as a kid, I worked with hammers and screwdrivers every summer building houses and offices. I think I am well aware of the differences there as well. George wrote: That is what make a difference: the flexibility of generic tool will always outgrow canned solution. In the end my contruction using C++ will be much better than yours using C#, each and every time. Perhaps, but you will spend 3-6 months building an e-commerce site in C++, while I will put out 3 or 4 in a month, with many more options and features and full page graphics to boot. The general case is not always the better one for a specific and focused problem. The toolkit is only better when you dont know what problem you are solving in advance // Rock

Christopher Lord

****Christian Graus wrote: If the toolkit *contained* a screwdriver that did the job just as well, and in some way gave me more control over the process ( yours is an electric screwdriver with one speed, mine has 10 ), then no, I'd prefer the toolit. Even if the screwdrivers were the same, I'd prefer not to rely on needing one specific tool every time I needed to do a job. Ah yes, but I can easly jump to C++ when I need to, and use C# when it will get the job done faster. Someone with Ideological attachments to C++ will thus be a less productive programmer. My contention is that using C# sometimes is not a downgrade. Its just another more focused tool in the toolbox. // Rock

Daniel Ferguson

As you say, VB is a gateway language. I, myself, learned VB first because it is easier to learn, but I became extremely frustrated with the things I couldn't do with VB, and the things that were more difficult than they should be. That's why I learned C++. I just couldn't work with the limitations of VB. With C++ you can do things as close to the metal (inline asm, if you wish) as you want or as easy (RAD) as you want. Flexibility is the key here. With C# you may be able to do things easily, but you're trading the flexibility of C++ for that. Sure you get garbage collection, but you lose deterministic destruction. I'd rather learn to be a better programmer and have to free any memory that I allocate, than lose deterministic destruction. You know, I don't remember hordes of programmers saying that C++ was too hard for them (get another job ;P ) and they wanted another language. As you said, and I agree, VB is a gateway language. Why don't real programmers use it? Simple, it isn't powerful or flexible enough. So the syntax is more C++-like now? That's just syntax, we want power and flexibilty. "Not to mention that security in Outlook is like having Homer Simpson guard a Dunkin' Donuts factory." - Gary Rogers