Ultimate Toolbox
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Yesterday, I happened to go to the Dundas web site and was surprised to find they only have .NET offerings. Just now I clicked on the "The Ultimate Toolback" ad and finally got to the "About Us" page. Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas? Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid? (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -- modified at 17:35 Tuesday 31st January, 2006
From my understanding CP now owns the MFC tools. I've also been told that the release I bought (like 3 years ago) still hasn't been updated Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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Yesterday, I happened to go to the Dundas web site and was surprised to find they only have .NET offerings. Just now I clicked on the "The Ultimate Toolback" ad and finally got to the "About Us" page. Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas? Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid? (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -- modified at 17:35 Tuesday 31st January, 2006
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas?
I plainly can't answer that one :-) I have no idea.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid?
I'm actually working on it at the moment.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
(Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.)
It's certainly been worked on since then, and I didn't see it 6 years ago. What was wrong with it then ? It seems like a pretty decent bit of code right now, I added some stuff that involved most of the grid classes and I found them easy to work with/learn. If your comment relates to architecture, I'm very surprised. If there were features you hoped for, what were they ?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar?
I won't comment here, because I obviously am not impartial.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library.
In what way ? There are lots of individual enhanced controls which you can use in any sort of MFC project, we have lots of samples running on a dialog, for example. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas?
I plainly can't answer that one :-) I have no idea.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid?
I'm actually working on it at the moment.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
(Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.)
It's certainly been worked on since then, and I didn't see it 6 years ago. What was wrong with it then ? It seems like a pretty decent bit of code right now, I added some stuff that involved most of the grid classes and I found them easy to work with/learn. If your comment relates to architecture, I'm very surprised. If there were features you hoped for, what were they ?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar?
I won't comment here, because I obviously am not impartial.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library.
In what way ? There are lots of individual enhanced controls which you can use in any sort of MFC project, we have lots of samples running on a dialog, for example. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) It's certainly been worked on since then, and I didn't see it 6 years ago. What was wrong with it then?
I'm quite sure it's been worked on, but at the time it was some of the least spectacular code I've seen. It just wasn't written very well; it seemed like a total hack job.
Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? I won't comment here, because I obviously am not impartial.
I don't want impartial views; they are a waste of my time. I want partial, strongly held views, though only if you've actually used at least one of the alternatives. I want to hear sound engineering arguments why one is better than the other.
Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. In what way ?
To get the Outlook 2003 look and feel with tabs, splitters and the left pain slider type lists. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) It's certainly been worked on since then, and I didn't see it 6 years ago. What was wrong with it then?
I'm quite sure it's been worked on, but at the time it was some of the least spectacular code I've seen. It just wasn't written very well; it seemed like a total hack job.
Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? I won't comment here, because I obviously am not impartial.
I don't want impartial views; they are a waste of my time. I want partial, strongly held views, though only if you've actually used at least one of the alternatives. I want to hear sound engineering arguments why one is better than the other.
Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. In what way ?
To get the Outlook 2003 look and feel with tabs, splitters and the left pain slider type lists. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
It just wasn't written very well; it seemed like a total hack job.
OK, then I imagine it's been rewritten, because I think the current code is very well designed/put together.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I want partial, strongly held views, though only if you've actually used at least one of the alternatives. I want to hear sound engineering arguments why one is better than the other.
*grin* Well, to be honest, I answered so you wouldn't think I dodged the question, but I've not used the alternatives you mention particularly, although I looked *at* them about 4 years ago.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
To get the Outlook 2003 look and feel with tabs, splitters and the left pain slider type lists.
And you want to do this without using Doc/View ? Given that the individual controls used to create the composite look/feel projects are seperate classes, I would think you could use them to build any sort of project you liked, so long as it supported MFC. But our Outlook demo uses Doc/View. Which compiler are you using (out of interest ) ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) It's certainly been worked on since then, and I didn't see it 6 years ago. What was wrong with it then?
I'm quite sure it's been worked on, but at the time it was some of the least spectacular code I've seen. It just wasn't written very well; it seemed like a total hack job.
Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? I won't comment here, because I obviously am not impartial.
I don't want impartial views; they are a waste of my time. I want partial, strongly held views, though only if you've actually used at least one of the alternatives. I want to hear sound engineering arguments why one is better than the other.
Christian Graus wrote:
Joe Woodbury wrote: Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. In what way ?
To get the Outlook 2003 look and feel with tabs, splitters and the left pain slider type lists. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
To get the Outlook 2003 look and feel with tabs, splitters and the left pain slider type lists.
Looks like you are talking about the Toolbox product. The Ultimate Grid is a different product. Regards, Nish
My blog : Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET
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Yesterday, I happened to go to the Dundas web site and was surprised to find they only have .NET offerings. Just now I clicked on the "The Ultimate Toolback" ad and finally got to the "About Us" page. Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas? Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid? (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -- modified at 17:35 Tuesday 31st January, 2006
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library.
Most of the toolbox classes, and the entire grid library works well without doc/view. Regards, Nish
My blog : Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas?
I plainly can't answer that one :-) I have no idea.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid?
I'm actually working on it at the moment.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
(Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.)
It's certainly been worked on since then, and I didn't see it 6 years ago. What was wrong with it then ? It seems like a pretty decent bit of code right now, I added some stuff that involved most of the grid classes and I found them easy to work with/learn. If your comment relates to architecture, I'm very surprised. If there were features you hoped for, what were they ?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar?
I won't comment here, because I obviously am not impartial.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library.
In what way ? There are lots of individual enhanced controls which you can use in any sort of MFC project, we have lots of samples running on a dialog, for example. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
I have a subscription but haven't seen any updates. Are you saying that the product has or is being updated? When should we expect to see that or did I not receive an update that I should have? Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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I have a subscription but haven't seen any updates. Are you saying that the product has or is being updated? When should we expect to see that or did I not receive an update that I should have? Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
Hey Tom, There have been no general releases yet, and while we're working on the products no release dates have been announced. We'll certainly let you know when there is some news. David
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Hey Tom, There have been no general releases yet, and while we're working on the products no release dates have been announced. We'll certainly let you know when there is some news. David
My only concern is that my subscription will have run out. While you can't give exact dates, could you let me know if my subscription will still be valid at that point? Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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I have a subscription but haven't seen any updates. Are you saying that the product has or is being updated? When should we expect to see that or did I not receive an update that I should have? Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
Hi Tom. I've been working on the grid since December, and the toolbox since mid Jan. I have no idea what happened prior to then. I'm saying it is being updated now. I'm not sure when it will be released, that's not my decision. I'm sure we'll ship when we're sure it's ready. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library.
Most of the toolbox classes, and the entire grid library works well without doc/view. Regards, Nish
My blog : Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET
i'm using UT and UG 8.something with doc/view and they work GREAT. The whole package has saved me hours of development time and allowed me to focus more on the application than on the UI. The office 2003 look paired with some stuff from codejock makes my in-house apps look like they came from a commercial house. ~Nitron.
ññòòïðïðB A
start -
Yesterday, I happened to go to the Dundas web site and was surprised to find they only have .NET offerings. Just now I clicked on the "The Ultimate Toolback" ad and finally got to the "About Us" page. Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas? Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid? (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -- modified at 17:35 Tuesday 31st January, 2006
The toolbox/grid combo I'm currently using is version 8 and it provides the COxSkinnedApp base class for office 2003-style menus and stuff. Like I said to Nish, the package has saved me many hours of development time and has let me focus my efforts on my applications. You don't _need_ to use doc/view, but it has worked quire well for me. I have actually implemented multiple-inheretance by combining the COXSkinnedApp with COXFullScreen to provide the benefits of both with no problem. I also combined the UT/UG stuff with CodeJock's task pane and other UI stuff with no problems. Throw in some other libraries from National Instruments and you have yourself a full-fledged powerhouse!! It only takes ~1.5 hrs to integrate all of the above mentioned libraries and it would have taken me months (if not a whole year) to do it all myself. ~Nitron.
ññòòïðïðB A
start -
Yesterday, I happened to go to the Dundas web site and was surprised to find they only have .NET offerings. Just now I clicked on the "The Ultimate Toolback" ad and finally got to the "About Us" page. Made me curious; did you (Chris and David) buy the class libraries from Dundas? Did they give them to you? Is there still a connection with Dundas? Even more importantly, have you improved the toolbox and grid? (Last I used the Grid was about six years ago and it was pretty bad.) For those who have used and/or evaluated it--how does it compare to CodeJock? (feel free to make hypercritical remarks.) BCGControlBar? Finally, just out of curiosity, do you need to use the full "Document/View" architecture to use the UI library. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -- modified at 17:35 Tuesday 31st January, 2006
Hey Joe, So yes, Chris and I did buy the products from Dundas and we've set up a separate organization to support and update them. The primary motivation here is that there are literally thousands and thousands of users of these products and I personally didn't want the products to languish any longer. Is there a connection with Dundas? Sure, the connection is me. I think most people know that I'm the CEO of Dundas, and a Co-founder of CodeProject. Like Nish has mentioned I think you're confusing Ultimate Grid and Ultimate Toolbox. Both BCG and CodeJock have excellent libraries, and anyone who is considering an MFC library should certainly evaluate them both. Neither of those companies offer an MFC Grid component however and if that's important it's definitely something to consider. If you have specific questions about the products you should probably talk to Nish directly through the support@theultimatetoolbox.com alias. Almost all of the classes are independent of the Doc/View architecture. You can chose to work with it or without it. I think everyone realizes that we've been applying the bulk of our attention to CodeProject and making that work as well as possible. Nish, Smitha, Christian, Chris and I are spending time to advance Ultimate Toolbox, Ultimate Grid, and Ultimate TCP/IP. Hope that helps Joe. David
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My only concern is that my subscription will have run out. While you can't give exact dates, could you let me know if my subscription will still be valid at that point? Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
I can't Tom, sorry. Feel free to email me though and we can discuss your concerns. As it sits though support is available to you and that's the primary objective of the subscription. It's a funny topic really. I'm just in the process of buying 20 copies of Windows Server 2003 Web Edition for CodeProject and have decided against buying Software Assurance as I doubt I'll see value for it. Microsoft has got in a lot of hot water with their customers for promising to deliver updates in a schedule and then missing them. We don't do that. We provide support and along with that support if an update happens, you get that too. It's differnet I think; better. David
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Hi Tom. I've been working on the grid since December, and the toolbox since mid Jan. I have no idea what happened prior to then. I'm saying it is being updated now. I'm not sure when it will be released, that's not my decision. I'm sure we'll ship when we're sure it's ready. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sure we'll ship when we're sure it's ready.
Right-o. David
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
To get the Outlook 2003 look and feel with tabs, splitters and the left pain slider type lists.
Looks like you are talking about the Toolbox product. The Ultimate Grid is a different product. Regards, Nish
My blog : Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET
Nope, not confusing anything, just mixing comments and questions about the two together. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
To get the Outlook 2003 look and feel with tabs, splitters and the left pain slider type lists.
Looks like you are talking about the Toolbox product. The Ultimate Grid is a different product. Regards, Nish
My blog : Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET
Look at the title of the post, Nish. ;P
I went out there, in search of experience,
To taste and to touch and to feel as much
As a man can, before he repents...
-The Wanderer, Johnny Cash & U2Signature Area - Any changes made to the current sig will be saved -
Look at the title of the post, Nish. ;P
I went out there, in search of experience,
To taste and to touch and to feel as much
As a man can, before he repents...
-The Wanderer, Johnny Cash & U2Signature Area - Any changes made to the current sig will be savedDavid Stone wrote:
Look at the title of the post, Nish.
I saw that, David. Ultimate Grid, Ultimate Toolbox and Ultimate TCP/IP are all sold through the Ultimate Toolbox website. Regards, Nish
My blog : Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET
-- modified at 20:27 Tuesday 31st January, 2006
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Hey Joe, So yes, Chris and I did buy the products from Dundas and we've set up a separate organization to support and update them. The primary motivation here is that there are literally thousands and thousands of users of these products and I personally didn't want the products to languish any longer. Is there a connection with Dundas? Sure, the connection is me. I think most people know that I'm the CEO of Dundas, and a Co-founder of CodeProject. Like Nish has mentioned I think you're confusing Ultimate Grid and Ultimate Toolbox. Both BCG and CodeJock have excellent libraries, and anyone who is considering an MFC library should certainly evaluate them both. Neither of those companies offer an MFC Grid component however and if that's important it's definitely something to consider. If you have specific questions about the products you should probably talk to Nish directly through the support@theultimatetoolbox.com alias. Almost all of the classes are independent of the Doc/View architecture. You can chose to work with it or without it. I think everyone realizes that we've been applying the bulk of our attention to CodeProject and making that work as well as possible. Nish, Smitha, Christian, Chris and I are spending time to advance Ultimate Toolbox, Ultimate Grid, and Ultimate TCP/IP. Hope that helps Joe. David
David Cunningham wrote:
I think most people know that I'm the CEO of Dundas, and a Co-founder of CodeProject.
Egad! Say it isn't so!!! (kidding :P) Jeremy Falcon
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Hey Joe, So yes, Chris and I did buy the products from Dundas and we've set up a separate organization to support and update them. The primary motivation here is that there are literally thousands and thousands of users of these products and I personally didn't want the products to languish any longer. Is there a connection with Dundas? Sure, the connection is me. I think most people know that I'm the CEO of Dundas, and a Co-founder of CodeProject. Like Nish has mentioned I think you're confusing Ultimate Grid and Ultimate Toolbox. Both BCG and CodeJock have excellent libraries, and anyone who is considering an MFC library should certainly evaluate them both. Neither of those companies offer an MFC Grid component however and if that's important it's definitely something to consider. If you have specific questions about the products you should probably talk to Nish directly through the support@theultimatetoolbox.com alias. Almost all of the classes are independent of the Doc/View architecture. You can chose to work with it or without it. I think everyone realizes that we've been applying the bulk of our attention to CodeProject and making that work as well as possible. Nish, Smitha, Christian, Chris and I are spending time to advance Ultimate Toolbox, Ultimate Grid, and Ultimate TCP/IP. Hope that helps Joe. David
David Cunningham wrote:
Like Nish has mentioned I think you're confusing Ultimate Grid and Ultimate Toolbox.
Nope, not confusing anything, just conflating comments and questions about the two together. Your comments were helpful since I was mainly interested at the relationship between the two companies. I did an evaluation just under two years ago and chose CodeJock, but will very likely to another evaluation in the next few months once I am ready to concentrate on the UI. (Even if I don't use Ultimate Toolbox, I'm glad you guys are working on it. Competition is a good thing. Given my current employment situation--lack thereof--are you guys looking for any more contractors?:)) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke