What I did and thanks to all
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First I want to thank every one for the help on short notice, I really appreciate it. Second. I went to find our boss who had been a software guy but he was in a meeting. So I went to talk to the guy by myself. The guy said [the boss] had already been by to talk to him and had told him I'm the SW lead and he needed to listen. Next, he hadn't read the coding style guide. When I sent it out, I put it on a shared drive and sent everyone a link to it rather than email a copy to everybody. He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important. I showed him the path to the guide and told him he needed to read it. He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before. I just reminded him that this is what we were working to and with good justification we could change it, but until it was officially changed, this was it. I also said we wouldn't use his code until it was up to the style guide standards. (they're not even that strict IMHO) We talked a while about dead code (he didn't notice it was dead). Also about how others would like to use some of his generally useful functions, he said they could copy the functions and use them so we had a discussion about re-use not just copying. Over all he was amiable (sp?) but clueless. I didn't ask why he e-mailed everyone, I was to tired. I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy (coding standards aren't considarded company policy since every project can have there own). Usually we (this company) says people just need more training. I'm going to suggest to the bosses he goes to programming 101. I forsee some trying times. But thanks again for eveyones help. Joe Q
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First I want to thank every one for the help on short notice, I really appreciate it. Second. I went to find our boss who had been a software guy but he was in a meeting. So I went to talk to the guy by myself. The guy said [the boss] had already been by to talk to him and had told him I'm the SW lead and he needed to listen. Next, he hadn't read the coding style guide. When I sent it out, I put it on a shared drive and sent everyone a link to it rather than email a copy to everybody. He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important. I showed him the path to the guide and told him he needed to read it. He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before. I just reminded him that this is what we were working to and with good justification we could change it, but until it was officially changed, this was it. I also said we wouldn't use his code until it was up to the style guide standards. (they're not even that strict IMHO) We talked a while about dead code (he didn't notice it was dead). Also about how others would like to use some of his generally useful functions, he said they could copy the functions and use them so we had a discussion about re-use not just copying. Over all he was amiable (sp?) but clueless. I didn't ask why he e-mailed everyone, I was to tired. I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy (coding standards aren't considarded company policy since every project can have there own). Usually we (this company) says people just need more training. I'm going to suggest to the bosses he goes to programming 101. I forsee some trying times. But thanks again for eveyones help. Joe Q
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First I want to thank every one for the help on short notice, I really appreciate it. Second. I went to find our boss who had been a software guy but he was in a meeting. So I went to talk to the guy by myself. The guy said [the boss] had already been by to talk to him and had told him I'm the SW lead and he needed to listen. Next, he hadn't read the coding style guide. When I sent it out, I put it on a shared drive and sent everyone a link to it rather than email a copy to everybody. He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important. I showed him the path to the guide and told him he needed to read it. He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before. I just reminded him that this is what we were working to and with good justification we could change it, but until it was officially changed, this was it. I also said we wouldn't use his code until it was up to the style guide standards. (they're not even that strict IMHO) We talked a while about dead code (he didn't notice it was dead). Also about how others would like to use some of his generally useful functions, he said they could copy the functions and use them so we had a discussion about re-use not just copying. Over all he was amiable (sp?) but clueless. I didn't ask why he e-mailed everyone, I was to tired. I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy (coding standards aren't considarded company policy since every project can have there own). Usually we (this company) says people just need more training. I'm going to suggest to the bosses he goes to programming 101. I forsee some trying times. But thanks again for eveyones help. Joe Q
Sounds like you handled it well. Anyone who says things like
Joe Q wrote:
He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important
Joe Q wrote:
He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before.
would have got a mouthful from me. If an employee isn't willing to do what they are asked, then they are useless in my book. Any other mistake can be overcome, so long as they are willing to try to do the right thing. IMO, a coding standard is vital, and no-one should expect it to follow exactly everything they prefer. Just having a standard matters more than what it is, IMO.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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SOunds much better than it could have been :cool:
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify! || Fold With Us! || sighist -
First I want to thank every one for the help on short notice, I really appreciate it. Second. I went to find our boss who had been a software guy but he was in a meeting. So I went to talk to the guy by myself. The guy said [the boss] had already been by to talk to him and had told him I'm the SW lead and he needed to listen. Next, he hadn't read the coding style guide. When I sent it out, I put it on a shared drive and sent everyone a link to it rather than email a copy to everybody. He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important. I showed him the path to the guide and told him he needed to read it. He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before. I just reminded him that this is what we were working to and with good justification we could change it, but until it was officially changed, this was it. I also said we wouldn't use his code until it was up to the style guide standards. (they're not even that strict IMHO) We talked a while about dead code (he didn't notice it was dead). Also about how others would like to use some of his generally useful functions, he said they could copy the functions and use them so we had a discussion about re-use not just copying. Over all he was amiable (sp?) but clueless. I didn't ask why he e-mailed everyone, I was to tired. I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy (coding standards aren't considarded company policy since every project can have there own). Usually we (this company) says people just need more training. I'm going to suggest to the bosses he goes to programming 101. I forsee some trying times. But thanks again for eveyones help. Joe Q
Joe Q wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy
Hopefully you can make things better with reviews and standards, but I've worked in places like that before and it doesn't take long before you become tired of fighting your way against the current. I hope the rest of your team are good, but I've noticed that places like that get clogged with those that are afraid to leave.
Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder
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First I want to thank every one for the help on short notice, I really appreciate it. Second. I went to find our boss who had been a software guy but he was in a meeting. So I went to talk to the guy by myself. The guy said [the boss] had already been by to talk to him and had told him I'm the SW lead and he needed to listen. Next, he hadn't read the coding style guide. When I sent it out, I put it on a shared drive and sent everyone a link to it rather than email a copy to everybody. He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important. I showed him the path to the guide and told him he needed to read it. He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before. I just reminded him that this is what we were working to and with good justification we could change it, but until it was officially changed, this was it. I also said we wouldn't use his code until it was up to the style guide standards. (they're not even that strict IMHO) We talked a while about dead code (he didn't notice it was dead). Also about how others would like to use some of his generally useful functions, he said they could copy the functions and use them so we had a discussion about re-use not just copying. Over all he was amiable (sp?) but clueless. I didn't ask why he e-mailed everyone, I was to tired. I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy (coding standards aren't considarded company policy since every project can have there own). Usually we (this company) says people just need more training. I'm going to suggest to the bosses he goes to programming 101. I forsee some trying times. But thanks again for eveyones help. Joe Q
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First I want to thank every one for the help on short notice, I really appreciate it. Second. I went to find our boss who had been a software guy but he was in a meeting. So I went to talk to the guy by myself. The guy said [the boss] had already been by to talk to him and had told him I'm the SW lead and he needed to listen. Next, he hadn't read the coding style guide. When I sent it out, I put it on a shared drive and sent everyone a link to it rather than email a copy to everybody. He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important. I showed him the path to the guide and told him he needed to read it. He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before. I just reminded him that this is what we were working to and with good justification we could change it, but until it was officially changed, this was it. I also said we wouldn't use his code until it was up to the style guide standards. (they're not even that strict IMHO) We talked a while about dead code (he didn't notice it was dead). Also about how others would like to use some of his generally useful functions, he said they could copy the functions and use them so we had a discussion about re-use not just copying. Over all he was amiable (sp?) but clueless. I didn't ask why he e-mailed everyone, I was to tired. I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy (coding standards aren't considarded company policy since every project can have there own). Usually we (this company) says people just need more training. I'm going to suggest to the bosses he goes to programming 101. I forsee some trying times. But thanks again for eveyones help. Joe Q
Joe Q wrote:
He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important.
I am often reminded of a court case I ended up foreman on. The lady was suing the school because she lost tenure and then was not picked up. She neglected her training for years even with reminders on her review, refused to follow some school policies also even though they were on her review... because they were in the "suggested" category. It became manditory on the final year before her tenure review, and it went in the manditory column.... she couldn't get all the "required" items in, in just one year, so it was all the schools fault. It is amazing how many people have warning, and never listen. If the "suggestion" comes from the boss, it is always important to read, and at least consider. Importance is not graded by how many trees you kill. Though I do have one printed copy of the documentation for my project, in a 4" binder because someone said it wasn't documentation if it wasn't printed.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Sounds like you handled it well. Anyone who says things like
Joe Q wrote:
He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important
Joe Q wrote:
He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before.
would have got a mouthful from me. If an employee isn't willing to do what they are asked, then they are useless in my book. Any other mistake can be overcome, so long as they are willing to try to do the right thing. IMO, a coding standard is vital, and no-one should expect it to follow exactly everything they prefer. Just having a standard matters more than what it is, IMO.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
would have got a mouthful from me. If an employee isn't willing to do what they are asked, then they are useless in my book. Any other mistake can be overcome, so long as they are willing to try to do the right thing.
He's pretty useless in my book too. I'm going to see if I can help guide him to be more productive. I need to figure out what motivates him. I told him we wouldn't use his code if it didn't meet standards. 0 SLOC == 0% raise. Maybe that will work.
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Joe Q wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy
Hopefully you can make things better with reviews and standards, but I've worked in places like that before and it doesn't take long before you become tired of fighting your way against the current. I hope the rest of your team are good, but I've noticed that places like that get clogged with those that are afraid to leave.
Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder
Andy Brummer wrote:
I hope the rest of your team are good, but I've noticed that places like that get clogged with those that are afraid to leave.
I think most are. 2 are new and willing to learn. 2 are ex-hardware guys, lots of experiance in HW, but not much in SW but they were put doing software anyway (not by me) but they're teachable I think. 1 who I know is good, and then this guy.
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Christian Graus wrote:
would have got a mouthful from me. If an employee isn't willing to do what they are asked, then they are useless in my book. Any other mistake can be overcome, so long as they are willing to try to do the right thing.
He's pretty useless in my book too. I'm going to see if I can help guide him to be more productive. I need to figure out what motivates him. I told him we wouldn't use his code if it didn't meet standards. 0 SLOC == 0% raise. Maybe that will work.
Yeah, it's sad to work with people who are only motivated by the bottom line, but you have to expect that will work for anyone :-)
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Joe Q wrote:
He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important.
I am often reminded of a court case I ended up foreman on. The lady was suing the school because she lost tenure and then was not picked up. She neglected her training for years even with reminders on her review, refused to follow some school policies also even though they were on her review... because they were in the "suggested" category. It became manditory on the final year before her tenure review, and it went in the manditory column.... she couldn't get all the "required" items in, in just one year, so it was all the schools fault. It is amazing how many people have warning, and never listen. If the "suggestion" comes from the boss, it is always important to read, and at least consider. Importance is not graded by how many trees you kill. Though I do have one printed copy of the documentation for my project, in a 4" binder because someone said it wasn't documentation if it wasn't printed.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I've worked with this guy before as peer's. He was sort of like that, he would be told things but he never seemed to care, or to remember. He remembers everything on that project as going great. I remember having to clean up his mess becasue the boss didn't want to deal with him. Go figure.
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Joe Q wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: wait... was that supposed to be funny? :)
led mike
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Yeah, it's sad to work with people who are only motivated by the bottom line, but you have to expect that will work for anyone :-)
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
If you have any other angles as motivation, I would love to hear them. I know it's not his love for the job, or to do a quality job, or to move up in the company. Possibly by his personal happyness but he seems to forget anything bad that has happend on previous projects.
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Christian Graus wrote:
would have got a mouthful from me. If an employee isn't willing to do what they are asked, then they are useless in my book. Any other mistake can be overcome, so long as they are willing to try to do the right thing.
He's pretty useless in my book too. I'm going to see if I can help guide him to be more productive. I need to figure out what motivates him. I told him we wouldn't use his code if it didn't meet standards. 0 SLOC == 0% raise. Maybe that will work.
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Maybe, maybe not. he appears to be a deadbeat slacker in a company that won't fire him regardless of his actions. Under the circumstances staying in place is much safer than moving to a new company that's probably less tollerant of incompetance.
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Sounds like you handled it well. Anyone who says things like
Joe Q wrote:
He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important
Joe Q wrote:
He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before.
would have got a mouthful from me. If an employee isn't willing to do what they are asked, then they are useless in my book. Any other mistake can be overcome, so long as they are willing to try to do the right thing. IMO, a coding standard is vital, and no-one should expect it to follow exactly everything they prefer. Just having a standard matters more than what it is, IMO.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
If an employee isn't willing to do what they are asked, then they are useless in my book.
Man... i'm such a shitty employee. :-O
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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First I want to thank every one for the help on short notice, I really appreciate it. Second. I went to find our boss who had been a software guy but he was in a meeting. So I went to talk to the guy by myself. The guy said [the boss] had already been by to talk to him and had told him I'm the SW lead and he needed to listen. Next, he hadn't read the coding style guide. When I sent it out, I put it on a shared drive and sent everyone a link to it rather than email a copy to everybody. He said since I didn't send him the file he didn't think it was that important. I showed him the path to the guide and told him he needed to read it. He said he usually didn't agree with all the stuff in the guides he'd read before. I just reminded him that this is what we were working to and with good justification we could change it, but until it was officially changed, this was it. I also said we wouldn't use his code until it was up to the style guide standards. (they're not even that strict IMHO) We talked a while about dead code (he didn't notice it was dead). Also about how others would like to use some of his generally useful functions, he said they could copy the functions and use them so we had a discussion about re-use not just copying. Over all he was amiable (sp?) but clueless. I didn't ask why he e-mailed everyone, I was to tired. I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy (coding standards aren't considarded company policy since every project can have there own). Usually we (this company) says people just need more training. I'm going to suggest to the bosses he goes to programming 101. I forsee some trying times. But thanks again for eveyones help. Joe Q
Congrats and Good Luck! Sounds like you handled it pretty well. Old coders don't die hard, they slowly bit rot with decaying gotos. You might be asking a bit much if you want him to change. At best you can probably get the guidelines followed. That might be your best course of action too. Break up your coding guidelines into two categories, one across the company that becomes policy, and then one that is project based. Dunno, rough spot to be in.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Joe Q wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: wait... was that supposed to be funny? :)
led mike
I met a few of those programmers either and the reason they could make it were: They had a big mouth. When you listen to them without any programming knowledge (and some bosses have no clue about programming) you could believe they are one of the best programmers on earth. The good programmers are often bad sales people. Most of them don't earn the money a good one would earn. That is an advantage for the bosses (who still have no glue about programming). The boss usually doesn't look under the hood. As long as the GUI looks good and it works (without to many bugs) everything is just fine. When the boss tells them to do something stupid what really makes no sense or isn't a standard, they just do it. They never disagree or try to point the boss to the right direction and of course everything is possible and not only that - everything is possible within 10 days (see first reason). The worst thing I've ever seen was a guy who named his database tables table1, table2, table3,.... The columns were named field1, ...2, ...4. He did it this way because it is so easy to loop thru the tables and columns. He always ended a loop with a goto either. When he left the company the whole code was useless and had to be rewritten. Sad but true. I am happy this is not my employee but when I read the first posting I got a gastric ulcer right away.
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I met a few of those programmers either and the reason they could make it were: They had a big mouth. When you listen to them without any programming knowledge (and some bosses have no clue about programming) you could believe they are one of the best programmers on earth. The good programmers are often bad sales people. Most of them don't earn the money a good one would earn. That is an advantage for the bosses (who still have no glue about programming). The boss usually doesn't look under the hood. As long as the GUI looks good and it works (without to many bugs) everything is just fine. When the boss tells them to do something stupid what really makes no sense or isn't a standard, they just do it. They never disagree or try to point the boss to the right direction and of course everything is possible and not only that - everything is possible within 10 days (see first reason). The worst thing I've ever seen was a guy who named his database tables table1, table2, table3,.... The columns were named field1, ...2, ...4. He did it this way because it is so easy to loop thru the tables and columns. He always ended a loop with a goto either. When he left the company the whole code was useless and had to be rewritten. Sad but true. I am happy this is not my employee but when I read the first posting I got a gastric ulcer right away.
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Joe Q wrote:
I'm not entirely sure how he has made it in this industry this long. I do know it's our general company policy not to get rid of people because of incompetance only for not following policy
Hopefully you can make things better with reviews and standards, but I've worked in places like that before and it doesn't take long before you become tired of fighting your way against the current. I hope the rest of your team are good, but I've noticed that places like that get clogged with those that are afraid to leave.
Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder
Andy Brummer wrote:
I've worked in places like that before and it doesn't take long before you become tired of fighting your way against the current
His boss taking the right position at gunpoint seems a good sign for the place.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify! || Fold With Us! || sighist