Development platform decision
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
Here's a wild and wacky idea - GNUstep[^] - this is a similar programming setup to the Cocoa libraries on OS X. Those are pretty nice to develop in (debuggging's not so great, as it uses GDB). Compliance to your requirements is:
- Hmmmm - you can never say you've met this one - what is 'the minimum'...
- It uses GNU Objective C. That can call out to any C API, including Windows ones. It's built on native windowing, so you'll probably be able to access HWNDs, messages etc?
- The base libraries contain an XML parser[^]. There are the GNUStepWeb[^] libraries for Web services, based on WebObjects[^].
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
Erm...it sounds like your "president" has lost time with reality. As Christian has rightly pointed out, Python, Java etc are not best suited to desktop app development. If you want speed of development, .NET is the way to go. If you want tight efficient code with the most responsive UI possible, choose one of the native frameworks with C++. It sounds like you're there already. If your compnay is pushing rapid development in this way they are almost certainly neglecting quality. If you can't turn it around, my advice would be to take your skills to a company that has a more balanced perspective. :rose:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Ruby, and Python ? For desktop apps ? Java is even worse. Does he mean speed to run, or speed to develop ? If he means speed to run, he's an idiot. C++ is always going to be fastest, unless you recommend Win32 and C.
HakunaMatada wrote:
Development time must come down to a minimum.
VB.NET - you don't have to write ANY code to create pretty, badly put together applications
HakunaMatada wrote:
Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff.
C#, VB.NET, or C++.
HakunaMatada wrote:
Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default
C# or VB.NET. Looks like your boss is a moron. He wants those things, but only if they're not on the most widely supported platform that provides them ?
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
Well said. 5. :rose:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
Question: Is this a shrink wrapped standalone product ? If not, Ruby is an excellent choice. With FxRuby you can create powerful desktop apps, which wont be as responsive as C++/MFC but will compare very favorably with Java. .NET will fall somewhere in the middle. We have developed several in house desktop UI tools in Ruby and I can vouch for its ease of development and maintenance. We are a windows shop and we had mucked around with C# and Java, before standardizing on Ruby for all our inhouse and add-on tools. The thing is we have totally sidestepped CLR based languages at the moment. Our hardcore stuff is done in C++ and all side tools and in Ruby. If you are interested in the types of tools you can create using FxRuby, see one of our popular tools Asterisk VoIP Call analyzer[^]
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Erm...it sounds like your "president" has lost time with reality. As Christian has rightly pointed out, Python, Java etc are not best suited to desktop app development. If you want speed of development, .NET is the way to go. If you want tight efficient code with the most responsive UI possible, choose one of the native frameworks with C++. It sounds like you're there already. If your compnay is pushing rapid development in this way they are almost certainly neglecting quality. If you can't turn it around, my advice would be to take your skills to a company that has a more balanced perspective. :rose:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
my advice would be to take your skills to a company that has a more balanced perspective.
:rolleyes: Now that is an interesting thought...
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
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Question: Is this a shrink wrapped standalone product ? If not, Ruby is an excellent choice. With FxRuby you can create powerful desktop apps, which wont be as responsive as C++/MFC but will compare very favorably with Java. .NET will fall somewhere in the middle. We have developed several in house desktop UI tools in Ruby and I can vouch for its ease of development and maintenance. We are a windows shop and we had mucked around with C# and Java, before standardizing on Ruby for all our inhouse and add-on tools. The thing is we have totally sidestepped CLR based languages at the moment. Our hardcore stuff is done in C++ and all side tools and in Ruby. If you are interested in the types of tools you can create using FxRuby, see one of our popular tools Asterisk VoIP Call analyzer[^]
Thanks for sharing your experience. :)
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
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And if in addition you want to add the multi platform without so much additional effort, you may take a look at wxWidgets...and with such solution, why not stick with VC++?...
Given the requirements he has, he should stick with MFC or .net. How strange. That would be nice to know the reasons behind his boss reasonning. Concerning wxWidgets, this is a nice library. The only thing is, it is very similar to MFC. (Not a problem in itself) Let's take the example of resources. Back in the Windows 3.x days, and still in Win32, resources are managed with templates, stored in the exec, and loaded when needed. Both MFC and wxWidgets follow this (old?) way of doing things. On the opposite C# has a different approach. For example, a dialog box will be built from C# objects created by the developer (or generated by VS). This a good approach (IMO) because it is more homogeneous, to use objects in an OO language. Also the reasons for using separate memory segments to load templates, back in win3.x days are now out of date. On the other hand, by doing so, I think MS has let the dogs out... Once you put your finger into this, you start wondering why you have bothered yourself with all those non-OO constructs for so long. Many of the old arguments against full OO in C++, have gone irrelevant nowadays. And from one place to the next, you end up being back to raw native C++. Which after all is nice, because now computers are roomy enough and fast enough to not even notice this. Some might still argue that C would be even more frugal. But compared to some very large runtimes we see now, C++ is really inexpensive, AND allows for high-level coding. Just would love to see a .net framework without all those multi-language, multi-platform, managed memory features. Still .net as is, remains very good.
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
If I were in your shoes, I would simply look for a smarter boss before the entire ship sinks :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: ASP.NET HttpException - Cannot use leading "..".. Latest Tech Blog Post: Blog changed to Subtext!
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
If you need quick development tool for win32, I think you should look at Delphi. It has power of C++ with easy/speed of development of Visual Basic. It is also well known that NET and C# have borrowed many things from delphi. If you need NET then go with C# in VS but in win32 Delphi is the Best. I am using both Visual studio (with C#) and delphi and I am about 50% quicker with delphi so most project I am creating with delphi. See site: http://www.turboexplorer.com/ for free personal copy of delphi, tutorials an info.
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HakunaMatada wrote:
Any specific reasons that I shouldn't?
Python is a scripting language, can you even write desktop apps in it ?
HakunaMatada wrote:
nd my boss says he has specific reasons why he doesn't want to use .NET.
I'd love to hear them.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
Christian Graus wrote:
Python is a scripting language, can you even write desktop apps in it ?
Someone is behind the times :D As to answer the original poster's question I think we would need more details to give a good recommendation. - What size apps are you developing? - What performance requirements do you have? - Do you need a lot of custom GUI elements? - Do you have a shared library you use now to write apps faster? so many other questions in order to recommend something
Todd Smith
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HakunaMatada wrote:
Any specific reasons that I shouldn't?
Python is a scripting language, can you even write desktop apps in it ?
HakunaMatada wrote:
nd my boss says he has specific reasons why he doesn't want to use .NET.
I'd love to hear them.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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merckel wrote:
wxWidgets
You beat me to it. It also does have the added benefit of being easy to learn if you're used to MFC IMO.
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
I like wxWidgets. It's a clever, neat implementation and generally very well supported.
Arthur Dent - "That would explain it. All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world." Slartibartfast - "No. That's perfectly normal paranoia. Everybody in the universe gets that." Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
Plain English Compiler with it's AI capabilities and it's telepathic link. Compile times down to 3 seconds and development time down to 0 seconds.:laugh:
Arthur Dent - "That would explain it. All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world." Slartibartfast - "No. That's perfectly normal paranoia. Everybody in the universe gets that." Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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If I were in your shoes, I would simply look for a smarter boss before the entire ship sinks :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: ASP.NET HttpException - Cannot use leading "..".. Latest Tech Blog Post: Blog changed to Subtext!
What is it about presidents and dodgy, ill informed decisions?:)
Arthur Dent - "That would explain it. All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world." Slartibartfast - "No. That's perfectly normal paranoia. Everybody in the universe gets that." Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Erm...it sounds like your "president" has lost time with reality. As Christian has rightly pointed out, Python, Java etc are not best suited to desktop app development. If you want speed of development, .NET is the way to go. If you want tight efficient code with the most responsive UI possible, choose one of the native frameworks with C++. It sounds like you're there already. If your compnay is pushing rapid development in this way they are almost certainly neglecting quality. If you can't turn it around, my advice would be to take your skills to a company that has a more balanced perspective. :rose:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
Java etc are not best suited to desktop app development.
how I wish I could convince one of our team of that... He touts Java as "fixing" all the problems with C++... :omg: so I needled back one day tired of the comments, that C# was made to fix all the problems with Java.... :laugh: if looks could kill... I would have been tortured to death at that moment....
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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HakunaMatada wrote:
Any specific reasons that I shouldn't?
Python is a scripting language, can you even write desktop apps in it ?
HakunaMatada wrote:
nd my boss says he has specific reasons why he doesn't want to use .NET.
I'd love to hear them.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
Christian Graus wrote:
Python is a scripting language, can you even write desktop apps in it ?
You can (we have a guy that does that), but that's not something I would recommend.
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Check out the VCF: http://vcf-online.org/[^]. I recently ported an app from ATL/WTL over to it, and it's very .net like and easy use and customize.
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
Java etc are not best suited to desktop app development.
how I wish I could convince one of our team of that... He touts Java as "fixing" all the problems with C++... :omg: so I needled back one day tired of the comments, that C# was made to fix all the problems with Java.... :laugh: if looks could kill... I would have been tortured to death at that moment....
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
He touts Java as "fixing" all the problems with C++... so I needled back one day tired of the comments, that C# was made to fix all the problems with Java.... if looks could kill... I would have been tortured to death at that moment....
:laugh:
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
Given the options you have listed (Python, Ruby and Java), Java has an advantage for desktop apps that the widget framework is included (Before the flame war on Swings please note that I did not say it was good/bad, just that it was included). Now this does not mean that you cannot create a desktop app with Ruby of Python, it just means that you need to choose a widget framework as well. wxWidgets is a fairly good framework and it is supported in all of the environments mentioned. Still, I doubt you will see a significant difference using wxWidgets over VC++/Win32. As has been posted here already more information about the type of application would be helpful. For instance, the incredible numbers that are thrown around concerning how efficient Ruby is to program in, are almost always associated with database maintenance applications developed in Rails (If you don't know Rails is a web development framework written in Ruby). It is true that one can create an application in Rails in days, but only if a) you can follow the Rails conventions, and b) it is a simple database maintenance application. Once you deviate off the path, you are back to writing code yourself. Rails/Ruby is a fine environment, but not substantially more efficient than ASP.Net in that case. So can you give us a general feel for the type of app your are working on?
Tanks for your support
Pat O
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Hi all, I am in a dillema. We specialize in Desktop Apps and currently use VC++ with ATL and WTL for our products. Now our president wants to move to a faster development platform. He says MFC and .NET are not options (I dunno why). I had recommended .NET but he says look for other alternatives. I have considered RUBY, PYTHON and Java but dunno which is the best platform to go with. My requirements are: 1) Development time must come down to a minimum. 2) Must provide support to access the Win32 API because we use a lot of those for custom windows, Sidebar interfaces and stuff. 3) Must be able to connect to Web services easily and better if it contains XML pasring libraries by default. Can anyone help me choose between the above mentioned three options or are there some more? Or should we stick with VC++? HELP!!!
--- :beer: Hakuna-Matada :beer: It means no worries for the rest of your days... It's our problem free, Philosophy :jig: It’s rather simple to write an unmanaged C++ application that crashes when it performs a callback. It’s impossible to write a managed application that does the same, thanks to delegates. - Jeff Prosise
