Is this a good thing?
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
A true disciple, a true student, is won by respect, not religious dogma.
Are you quite sure? "The Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumblingblock, and to the Greeks foolishness; but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
A river flows downhill, it follows the laws of gravity. Through valleys and past mountains it meanders. It does not seek to force the mountains to move, it does not demand to roll uphill. It is the greatest teacher of all, for its force is unmistakably strong. But it does bend, it respects the world around it, and the laws that govern it. It adapts, it moves with the wind, and with the changing landscape, just as it also changes the landscape on its own. A true teacher is like a river, adapting, learning also, not demanding that the world change for it.
Very poetic. But I can't buy it. One of my masters warned me that "whosoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" and I believe he was right. The world, Jeffry, is wrong about almost everything (which explains why things are such a universal mess). So I'm not at all interested in "adapting" to the world; I've accepted the fact that I'm a stranger and a pilgrim here and will be until the day I die. Until then, I'm just the voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Make straight the way..."
The Grand Negus wrote:
Are you quite sure? "The Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumblingblock, and to the Greeks foolishness; but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
The river analogy is more natural. Religion is artificial. What you are quoting are not "true students". And you are using Religion as your basis here when discussing a scientific matter.
The Grand Negus wrote:
ne of my masters warned me that "whosoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" and I believe he was right.
So you are not open to new ideas then? You're just gonna accept what someone else tokd you to believe. Whatever you believe imprisons you. And being a friend of the world I believe is in reference to People, and not the laws of nature. Even Jesus used analogies based on nature to convey his points. In fact it was Paul who adapted the religion of Jesus to the world. Making him the friend of the world and the enemy of God, using your own language. So Christianity is then by that logic an enemy of God. I think we do a disservice when bringing in religious analogies when discussing matters of science. And this is Computer Science.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
medititate on the river, it'll do you far more good than anything else you have ever done.
Okay, I spent some time thinking about it, and here's what I thought. Sometimes, rivers slowly and peacefully erode the land under them, making a new landscape with hardly anyone even noticing. But at other times, rivers violently sweep away everything in their path to achieve the same end. Which, I don't think, is what you intended. But it is consistent with my master's teaching, "On some, have compassion, making a distinction; others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." If we can agree that there is a place in education for both the babbling brook and the torrential flood, then we can discuss which best suits the CodeProject crowd at this time; but if you can't agree that both are reasonable and appropriate techniques, properly applied, then this discussion must, of necessity, end here.
The Grand Negus wrote:
But at other times, rivers violently sweep away everything in their path to achieve the same end. Which, I don't think, is what you intended. But it is consistent with my master's teaching
But a river does not go out of its way, it simply is. There is no deliberate, malicious attempt, to sweep away people and places. Your mastering techinique is that born of megolomania and narcissism, you are a bomb on a dam, a deliberate terrorist action rather than the natural order. Now you understand your trouble with the river. -- modified at 21:56 Tuesday 2nd January, 2007
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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CaveFox wrote:
You just don't like to make friends do you?
No, I don't. As I've said many times before on these forums, I'm not here to make friends; I'm looking for disciples. I'm not looking for people who fit in here - I'm looking for the ones who don't. I'm looking for a few choice individuals to help me develop something significant before I go the way of all flesh. People who can think clearly, unemotionally, and creatively with extreme focus. People, in short, who are willing to learn and able to get things done. I've got no time or interest in contentious, undisciplined, lazy, cowardly, beligerant, sloppy, or otherwise defective individuals who do not want to improve themselves and their situation. Been there, done that. Waste of time.
Heh heh heh... you're pretty funny.
The Grand Negus wrote:
I'm looking for disciples. I'm not looking for people who fit in here - I'm looking for the ones who don't.
And you don't see how this violates the spirit of this site? I've been trying to find a way to defend your usage of the site here, as I do think the reactions are a bit too prejudiced, but when you make statements like this, you totally blow it. You are basically stating that you don't have any respect for what this site is for. And also that anyone who doesn't agree with you are:
The Grand Negus wrote:
I've got no time or interest in contentious, undisciplined, lazy, cowardly, beligerant, sloppy, or otherwise defective individuals who do not want to improve themselves and their situation. Been there, done that. Waste of time.
Pretty self serving, arrogant, pretentious, and downright insulting. Good luck, with this attitude you'll get more of your posts deleted.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote:
We are here to: a) Help developers in their Visual Studio and .NET development b) Allow authors to showcase their Visual Studio and .NET talents c) Focus on Visual Studio and .NET in order to keep things simple for everyone I've put everything I have in me for the last 7 years to stay on track with these goals.
Are you quite sure? Seven years? (1) The subtitle under your logo that says "Your Visual Studio and .NET Homepage" was not there when we first joined less than a year ago; I have a screen shot of the CodeProject home page - with the advertisement you sold us displayed in the upper left - to prove it. You knew who we were and what we were selling at that time; why didn't you refuse to sell us advertising, or at least discourage us from buying? On the contrary, you and your employees encouraged us to advertise here, and the trend continues: one of your members encouraged us to take out more ads this very day, and another platinum-level member and one of your "protectors" suggested that we write articles for the site on natural language programming. A third individual suggested we advertise in our signature (a suggestion that several high-ranking members have made to us before). (2) The .NET framework was not a serious contender for development seven years ago. (3) A cursory examination of the lounge reveals over 100 distinct messages discussing LINUX, all posted within the last month. (4) The "Mathematics and Algorithms" forum appears to be quite general in scope and character. (5) The brand new "Design and Architecture" forum gives no indication that it is product-specific. (6) The General Discussions forum still carries the description, "For discussing anything relevant to this site, or to the developer community as a whole." (7) The Lounge is described as a place "For lazing about and discussing anything that takes your fancy." (8) The Soapbox is provided specifically for "off-topic" rants and states that "If you want to get something off your chest then do it here," where "something" clearly means "pretty much anything" based on the content of that forum. (9) The Work and Training Issues forum is broad enough to include those who want to "Talk about work issues, get tips on resume writing or discussion certification programs." How that is Visual Studio or .NET specific escapes me. (10) Not to mention that there is also a SQL forum, a
The Grand Negus wrote:
Are you quite sure? Seven years?
Actually a little more than 7 years. But it started as Code Tools, then changed its name. It was started from a windows dev email list back in 99. At that time the main focus was win32 and MFC, but when .NET came out the focus shifted to stay more current with MS technologies, as the main stated goal at that time was the support of developing MS-based Apps. But always was the format the sharing of source code for developing systems on the MS platform. Remember, .NET wasn't MS' first programming framework. Heh.. now you are being argumentative and nitpicking.
The Grand Negus wrote:
So the fact of the matter is that this site's "exclusive emphasis" on Visual Studio and .NET is neither as longstanding nor as pervasive as you would have us believe. Rather, since we first joined and bought our ads less than a year ago, you have attempted to (or continued in your attempt to) change the character of the site. With sporadic and limited results.
Yes it is. Visual Studio didn't start with .NET. You do know this don't you? I mean, come on man. You are being totally rediculous. This is not the forum for seeking disciples. It is a forum for engineers developing software with MS Technologies. And the character of the site is the same as when he was first discussing it on the email list I mentioned earlier 7-8 years ago. I was there.
The Grand Negus wrote:
I've always known that this site catered to C-style programmers; but when I see a forum with a description that invites discussion of "anything relevant... to the developer community as a whole" I just can't resist. And when I see one of those "developers, students, or those looking for help" that you mention floundering around in a pool of confusion, I feel it's my duty to offer what assistance I can.
You know, this is the second time I've seen/heard someone reference their feeling of duty as justification for ignoring other's wishes about having information forced upon them. Mentioning your information in this manner is one thing, but incessantly hammering it down our throats after we've cried uncle, is entirely another manner.
The Grand Negus wrote:
This thought only "weirds you out" because you think, wrongly,
How can you make such a presumption as if you have
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The Grand Negus wrote:
So, when should the Apostle Paul abandon the Jews and restrict himself entirely to a Gentile ministry?
Never. He hijacked the religion and bent it to Rome's needs. He's a liar.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
The fish do not seek lost fish in the sky; nor the birds seek for lost birds in the ocean.
Bad analogy on this one, Jeffry. If "C" programmers are sharks, then Plain English programmers are dolphins or whales - but certainly not sparrows!
Or maybe PE programmers are eels. And C programmers are blowfish. Or maybe the PE programmer is a shark, and the C programmer is a porpoise. I like how you imply through your analogy that C programmers are predators with no brain, and PE programmers are really mammals in water with the higher mind. Your prejudice is doing you an injustice. Can you learn from us? Or is this really a one-way street?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Are you quite sure? "The Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumblingblock, and to the Greeks foolishness; but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
The river analogy is more natural. Religion is artificial. What you are quoting are not "true students". And you are using Religion as your basis here when discussing a scientific matter.
The Grand Negus wrote:
ne of my masters warned me that "whosoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" and I believe he was right.
So you are not open to new ideas then? You're just gonna accept what someone else tokd you to believe. Whatever you believe imprisons you. And being a friend of the world I believe is in reference to People, and not the laws of nature. Even Jesus used analogies based on nature to convey his points. In fact it was Paul who adapted the religion of Jesus to the world. Making him the friend of the world and the enemy of God, using your own language. So Christianity is then by that logic an enemy of God. I think we do a disservice when bringing in religious analogies when discussing matters of science. And this is Computer Science.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Heh heh heh... you're pretty funny.
The Grand Negus wrote:
I'm looking for disciples. I'm not looking for people who fit in here - I'm looking for the ones who don't.
And you don't see how this violates the spirit of this site? I've been trying to find a way to defend your usage of the site here, as I do think the reactions are a bit too prejudiced, but when you make statements like this, you totally blow it. You are basically stating that you don't have any respect for what this site is for. And also that anyone who doesn't agree with you are:
The Grand Negus wrote:
I've got no time or interest in contentious, undisciplined, lazy, cowardly, beligerant, sloppy, or otherwise defective individuals who do not want to improve themselves and their situation. Been there, done that. Waste of time.
Pretty self serving, arrogant, pretentious, and downright insulting. Good luck, with this attitude you'll get more of your posts deleted.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
And you don't see how this violates the spirit of this site?
No, because it wasn't like this when we started. All kinds of ideas about programming were, at that time, apparently welcome. This Microsoft-centric, Visual Studio only stuff is very recent, at least as regards the membership as a whole; it may have been in Maunder's mind all along, but the site was not, when we joined, so narrow in its viewpoint.
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
If you are attempting to help him understand C# then its not spam. If this is a mechanism to promote PlainEnglish in response to a request for help with C# then it is spam.
Actually, my intent was both, and more, so I'm not sure how you would classify it. I am quite sure that the exercise will improve his understanding of, and proficiency in, C#. I am equally sure that he will, throughout the project, be comparing the two approaches and making judgements regarding the strengths and weaknesses of each. I was also hoping, in the course of the exercise, to cover a wide variety of other, language-inspecific topics, including user interface design, compiler construction methods, performance tuning techniques, and so forth. Now, did I think, in the end, he'd be a better all-around C# programmer? No doubt. A better programmer, in general? No doubt again. Did I think, in the end, that he'd be "converted" to our way of thinking and doing and eventually become a productive, contributing member of the Osmosian Order of Plain English Programmers? Perhaps; I don't know. Some people just don't "see it"; others see it but have other things to do. While a few get that light in their eye and there's no stopping them. I think your question goes to motive: Are my motives "pure" in the sense that I want to teach C#, and only C#, and make this guy a fanatical proponent of C#? Of course not. But neither are my motives "mixed" in the usual sense - just "higher" than the choice of a particular syntax or approach. I want the guy to learn all he can about as much as he can so he can intelligently make his own choice. And if that's spam, then get bread and the mustard, because there's plenty more where that came from!
The Grand Negus wrote:
Actually, my intent was both,
Then that includes the intent to promote, which in result is spam. You have to seperate the two to be valid in this context.
The Grand Negus wrote:
While a few get that light in their eye and there's no stopping them.
How many so far?
The Grand Negus wrote:
and make this guy a fanatical proponent of C#?
That part isn't necessary. Not everything has to result in fanatacism. Maybe he has a project in mind and just wants to build it with C#. Doesn't require fanatacism.
The Grand Negus wrote:
just "higher" than the choice of a particular syntax or approach
You're coloring this to make it look more acceptable. This is brain wash. It isn't higher if you're abusing the forum. Its lower. Your intent to promote your own product at all costs is unfortunate.
The Grand Negus wrote:
I want the guy to learn all he can about as much as he can so he can intelligently make his own choice.
What about what "He" wants? Now you are projecting your desire for him onto him. This is where it violates the tenets of freewill. And why the cultish approach isn't likely to net any worthy types.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Or maybe PE programmers are eels. And C programmers are blowfish. Or maybe the PE programmer is a shark, and the C programmer is a porpoise. I like how you imply through your analogy that C programmers are predators with no brain, and PE programmers are really mammals in water with the higher mind. Your prejudice is doing you an injustice. Can you learn from us? Or is this really a one-way street?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Can you learn from us? Or is this really a one-way street?
Of course I can learn from you. I learn new things every day. But I came here, specifically, to teach. All people are not equal, nor are they equally qualified to teach others.
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Hey Jeffry! Here's something ironically humorous, since we were discussing "disciples" elsewhere in this thread. I just noticed that the guy who posted below (Phil Harding) says in his profile here, and I quote, "Since discovering Windows in the early 90's I've never looked back and consider myself to be a fully paid-up practising disciple of the Microsoft church." I guess the Osmosian Order isn't the only one proselytizing around here!:)
Its in his profile and not in everyone of his posts in the form of evanglism.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Actually, my intent was both,
Then that includes the intent to promote, which in result is spam. You have to seperate the two to be valid in this context.
The Grand Negus wrote:
While a few get that light in their eye and there's no stopping them.
How many so far?
The Grand Negus wrote:
and make this guy a fanatical proponent of C#?
That part isn't necessary. Not everything has to result in fanatacism. Maybe he has a project in mind and just wants to build it with C#. Doesn't require fanatacism.
The Grand Negus wrote:
just "higher" than the choice of a particular syntax or approach
You're coloring this to make it look more acceptable. This is brain wash. It isn't higher if you're abusing the forum. Its lower. Your intent to promote your own product at all costs is unfortunate.
The Grand Negus wrote:
I want the guy to learn all he can about as much as he can so he can intelligently make his own choice.
What about what "He" wants? Now you are projecting your desire for him onto him. This is where it violates the tenets of freewill. And why the cultish approach isn't likely to net any worthy types.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
he was joking, you are proselytizing.
True, and not true. Phil may be joking, but Maunder isn't; he's very serious about "converting" the world to Microsoft's way of thinking and doing. And while it's true that I am proselytizing, I'm clearly doing so with a distinct sense of humor. Do you think I call myself "Grand Negus" - offering my hairy ears as justification for the title - because I think that will make people take me seriously?
The Grand Negus wrote:
Phil may be joking, but Maunder isn't; he's very serious about "converting" the world to Microsoft's way of thinking and doing.
Now you're just full of crap. Maunder has offered up a free service to existing individuals working in this environment. Not out converting, but in supporting. There is a very large chasm between the two. You are entering a domain with the aim to convert. You are not just hanging in your own zone serving the people. Very different. And while you claim humor, your actions violate that. You are very serious here for instance in pushing the notion that Maunder is some sort of bad guy for wanting to keep his site focused on its intended purpose. Are you serious? That's too bad.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Its in his profile and not in everyone of his posts in the form of evanglism.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Only then you would find yourself arrested for disturbing the peace, tresspassing, or any number of other minor crimes that prevent you from proselytizing on private property EVEN IN THE USA.
Right. Which is along the same lines as my closing remarks to Maunder above. The physical world works as well as it does because there are legal and inforceable definitions of things such as "trespassing". The virtual world of the internet doesn't work quite right because the uninhibited "free exchange of information" is in conflict with various rights of individuals and limitations necessary to make the thing operate smoothly. Eventually, Maunder will have to either force out people who don't fit his profile, or not let them in in the first place. Right now, he's got a problem because he's not fully willing to do either - he lets anyone in to bump the member count, and doesn't decrement it when someone leaves under any conditions; in fact, there is no user-accessible facility for leaving. And so we get mixed messages (which I, admittedly, am taking advantage of). When this site is clearly a Microsoft-only site, and one is required to agree to stated conditions in order to become a CodeProject disciple (sorry, member), I'll be excluded simply because I won't accept those terms; and if I did appear in that future CodeProject, I'd be quickly ejected as a trespasser. But CodeProject is not, yet, such a place; many here who joined when it was different still wish it was more diverse, like it was when they first became members (see the Suggestion forum for evidence). In other words, it seems like Maunder gathered his membership under one pretense, but is now attempting to implement the "hidden agenda" on which he has been working so hard for seven years.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Eventually, Maunder will have to either force out people who don't fit his profile, or not let them in in the first place.
Not at all. This is what the spam / abuse feature is used for. It will serve. We've just debated it and determined that in fact it was correct in this instance as your real intent was to convert, not help.
The Grand Negus wrote:
In other words, it seems like Maunder gathered his membership under one pretense, but is now attempting to implement the "hidden agenda" on which he has been working so hard for seven years.
Full o Crap. It has always been MS CENTRIC. Nothing new here. No Hidden Agenda. But it does seem as if you have a problem with him, so the real question is why are you pissing in his pool?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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I'm just saying we joined under one set of rules and expectations - money changing hands for the purchase of advertisements indicating some kind of agreement - and are now being asked to leave under a different set of rules. That's all. But as I said before, when Maunder finally succeeds in eliminating everything non-Microsoft from his site, we will also be gone. It would be interesting, however, to poll all of the members to find out if they are really in favor of this "mutation" into a Microsoft-only site. Such a poll, carefully conducted, would also provide a great opportunity to "clean up" the membership roster, eliminating duplicates, frauds, and others who have been inactive for a long time!
Its unfortunate that your abuse of this site might cause the elimination of all things microsoft. Because you can't let it go. Because you can't just let it be something in your signature that people can respond to out of curiosity. Imagine if you will, a scenario where you don't mention it at every turn, but just keep it in your signature. Stay active in the forums. Help people when able. Then you might find that many more people out of curiosity will hit the link in your sig since you are now more visible and respected, such that they really want to know what it is that you find interesting. Blammo, you would probably have at least triple the interest as opposed to your current tactics of blitz marketing and pedantic debate showdowns. Are you willing to learn from others? And since you keep quoting references to God, what's your take on immanence? Is God seperate? Or part of us all? By which you would then need to also learn what this manifestation is attempting to teach you.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Can you learn from us? Or is this really a one-way street?
Of course I can learn from you. I learn new things every day. But I came here, specifically, to teach. All people are not equal, nor are they equally qualified to teach others.
The Grand Negus wrote:
But I came here, specifically, to teach. All people are not equal, nor are they equally qualified to teach others.
So then, by that logic, it would be valid for me to enter another's house and push my teachings on them? Again, this is awfully arrogant. Are you sure that you are qualified to teach?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
medititate on the river, it'll do you far more good than anything else you have ever done.
Okay, I spent some time thinking about it, and here's what I thought. Sometimes, rivers slowly and peacefully erode the land under them, making a new landscape with hardly anyone even noticing. But at other times, rivers violently sweep away everything in their path to achieve the same end. Which, I don't think, is what you intended. But it is consistent with my master's teaching, "On some, have compassion, making a distinction; others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." If we can agree that there is a place in education for both the babbling brook and the torrential flood, then we can discuss which best suits the CodeProject crowd at this time; but if you can't agree that both are reasonable and appropriate techniques, properly applied, then this discussion must, of necessity, end here.
The Grand Negus wrote:
"On some, have compassion, making a distinction; others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
You are confusing programming with religion and spirituality.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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No thanks. I prefer mayonnaise.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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The Grand Negus wrote:
"On some, have compassion, making a distinction; others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
You are confusing programming with religion and spirituality.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder