Is this a good thing?
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
If you are attempting to help him understand C# then its not spam. If this is a mechanism to promote PlainEnglish in response to a request for help with C# then it is spam.
Actually, my intent was both, and more, so I'm not sure how you would classify it. I am quite sure that the exercise will improve his understanding of, and proficiency in, C#. I am equally sure that he will, throughout the project, be comparing the two approaches and making judgements regarding the strengths and weaknesses of each. I was also hoping, in the course of the exercise, to cover a wide variety of other, language-inspecific topics, including user interface design, compiler construction methods, performance tuning techniques, and so forth. Now, did I think, in the end, he'd be a better all-around C# programmer? No doubt. A better programmer, in general? No doubt again. Did I think, in the end, that he'd be "converted" to our way of thinking and doing and eventually become a productive, contributing member of the Osmosian Order of Plain English Programmers? Perhaps; I don't know. Some people just don't "see it"; others see it but have other things to do. While a few get that light in their eye and there's no stopping them. I think your question goes to motive: Are my motives "pure" in the sense that I want to teach C#, and only C#, and make this guy a fanatical proponent of C#? Of course not. But neither are my motives "mixed" in the usual sense - just "higher" than the choice of a particular syntax or approach. I want the guy to learn all he can about as much as he can so he can intelligently make his own choice. And if that's spam, then get bread and the mustard, because there's plenty more where that came from!
The Grand Negus wrote:
Actually, my intent was both,
Then that includes the intent to promote, which in result is spam. You have to seperate the two to be valid in this context.
The Grand Negus wrote:
While a few get that light in their eye and there's no stopping them.
How many so far?
The Grand Negus wrote:
and make this guy a fanatical proponent of C#?
That part isn't necessary. Not everything has to result in fanatacism. Maybe he has a project in mind and just wants to build it with C#. Doesn't require fanatacism.
The Grand Negus wrote:
just "higher" than the choice of a particular syntax or approach
You're coloring this to make it look more acceptable. This is brain wash. It isn't higher if you're abusing the forum. Its lower. Your intent to promote your own product at all costs is unfortunate.
The Grand Negus wrote:
I want the guy to learn all he can about as much as he can so he can intelligently make his own choice.
What about what "He" wants? Now you are projecting your desire for him onto him. This is where it violates the tenets of freewill. And why the cultish approach isn't likely to net any worthy types.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Hey Jeffry! Here's something ironically humorous, since we were discussing "disciples" elsewhere in this thread. I just noticed that the guy who posted below (Phil Harding) says in his profile here, and I quote, "Since discovering Windows in the early 90's I've never looked back and consider myself to be a fully paid-up practising disciple of the Microsoft church." I guess the Osmosian Order isn't the only one proselytizing around here!:)
Its in his profile and not in everyone of his posts in the form of evanglism.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Or maybe PE programmers are eels. And C programmers are blowfish. Or maybe the PE programmer is a shark, and the C programmer is a porpoise. I like how you imply through your analogy that C programmers are predators with no brain, and PE programmers are really mammals in water with the higher mind. Your prejudice is doing you an injustice. Can you learn from us? Or is this really a one-way street?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Can you learn from us? Or is this really a one-way street?
Of course I can learn from you. I learn new things every day. But I came here, specifically, to teach. All people are not equal, nor are they equally qualified to teach others.
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Actually, my intent was both,
Then that includes the intent to promote, which in result is spam. You have to seperate the two to be valid in this context.
The Grand Negus wrote:
While a few get that light in their eye and there's no stopping them.
How many so far?
The Grand Negus wrote:
and make this guy a fanatical proponent of C#?
That part isn't necessary. Not everything has to result in fanatacism. Maybe he has a project in mind and just wants to build it with C#. Doesn't require fanatacism.
The Grand Negus wrote:
just "higher" than the choice of a particular syntax or approach
You're coloring this to make it look more acceptable. This is brain wash. It isn't higher if you're abusing the forum. Its lower. Your intent to promote your own product at all costs is unfortunate.
The Grand Negus wrote:
I want the guy to learn all he can about as much as he can so he can intelligently make his own choice.
What about what "He" wants? Now you are projecting your desire for him onto him. This is where it violates the tenets of freewill. And why the cultish approach isn't likely to net any worthy types.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
he was joking, you are proselytizing.
True, and not true. Phil may be joking, but Maunder isn't; he's very serious about "converting" the world to Microsoft's way of thinking and doing. And while it's true that I am proselytizing, I'm clearly doing so with a distinct sense of humor. Do you think I call myself "Grand Negus" - offering my hairy ears as justification for the title - because I think that will make people take me seriously?
The Grand Negus wrote:
Phil may be joking, but Maunder isn't; he's very serious about "converting" the world to Microsoft's way of thinking and doing.
Now you're just full of crap. Maunder has offered up a free service to existing individuals working in this environment. Not out converting, but in supporting. There is a very large chasm between the two. You are entering a domain with the aim to convert. You are not just hanging in your own zone serving the people. Very different. And while you claim humor, your actions violate that. You are very serious here for instance in pushing the notion that Maunder is some sort of bad guy for wanting to keep his site focused on its intended purpose. Are you serious? That's too bad.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Its in his profile and not in everyone of his posts in the form of evanglism.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Only then you would find yourself arrested for disturbing the peace, tresspassing, or any number of other minor crimes that prevent you from proselytizing on private property EVEN IN THE USA.
Right. Which is along the same lines as my closing remarks to Maunder above. The physical world works as well as it does because there are legal and inforceable definitions of things such as "trespassing". The virtual world of the internet doesn't work quite right because the uninhibited "free exchange of information" is in conflict with various rights of individuals and limitations necessary to make the thing operate smoothly. Eventually, Maunder will have to either force out people who don't fit his profile, or not let them in in the first place. Right now, he's got a problem because he's not fully willing to do either - he lets anyone in to bump the member count, and doesn't decrement it when someone leaves under any conditions; in fact, there is no user-accessible facility for leaving. And so we get mixed messages (which I, admittedly, am taking advantage of). When this site is clearly a Microsoft-only site, and one is required to agree to stated conditions in order to become a CodeProject disciple (sorry, member), I'll be excluded simply because I won't accept those terms; and if I did appear in that future CodeProject, I'd be quickly ejected as a trespasser. But CodeProject is not, yet, such a place; many here who joined when it was different still wish it was more diverse, like it was when they first became members (see the Suggestion forum for evidence). In other words, it seems like Maunder gathered his membership under one pretense, but is now attempting to implement the "hidden agenda" on which he has been working so hard for seven years.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Eventually, Maunder will have to either force out people who don't fit his profile, or not let them in in the first place.
Not at all. This is what the spam / abuse feature is used for. It will serve. We've just debated it and determined that in fact it was correct in this instance as your real intent was to convert, not help.
The Grand Negus wrote:
In other words, it seems like Maunder gathered his membership under one pretense, but is now attempting to implement the "hidden agenda" on which he has been working so hard for seven years.
Full o Crap. It has always been MS CENTRIC. Nothing new here. No Hidden Agenda. But it does seem as if you have a problem with him, so the real question is why are you pissing in his pool?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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I'm just saying we joined under one set of rules and expectations - money changing hands for the purchase of advertisements indicating some kind of agreement - and are now being asked to leave under a different set of rules. That's all. But as I said before, when Maunder finally succeeds in eliminating everything non-Microsoft from his site, we will also be gone. It would be interesting, however, to poll all of the members to find out if they are really in favor of this "mutation" into a Microsoft-only site. Such a poll, carefully conducted, would also provide a great opportunity to "clean up" the membership roster, eliminating duplicates, frauds, and others who have been inactive for a long time!
Its unfortunate that your abuse of this site might cause the elimination of all things microsoft. Because you can't let it go. Because you can't just let it be something in your signature that people can respond to out of curiosity. Imagine if you will, a scenario where you don't mention it at every turn, but just keep it in your signature. Stay active in the forums. Help people when able. Then you might find that many more people out of curiosity will hit the link in your sig since you are now more visible and respected, such that they really want to know what it is that you find interesting. Blammo, you would probably have at least triple the interest as opposed to your current tactics of blitz marketing and pedantic debate showdowns. Are you willing to learn from others? And since you keep quoting references to God, what's your take on immanence? Is God seperate? Or part of us all? By which you would then need to also learn what this manifestation is attempting to teach you.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Can you learn from us? Or is this really a one-way street?
Of course I can learn from you. I learn new things every day. But I came here, specifically, to teach. All people are not equal, nor are they equally qualified to teach others.
The Grand Negus wrote:
But I came here, specifically, to teach. All people are not equal, nor are they equally qualified to teach others.
So then, by that logic, it would be valid for me to enter another's house and push my teachings on them? Again, this is awfully arrogant. Are you sure that you are qualified to teach?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
medititate on the river, it'll do you far more good than anything else you have ever done.
Okay, I spent some time thinking about it, and here's what I thought. Sometimes, rivers slowly and peacefully erode the land under them, making a new landscape with hardly anyone even noticing. But at other times, rivers violently sweep away everything in their path to achieve the same end. Which, I don't think, is what you intended. But it is consistent with my master's teaching, "On some, have compassion, making a distinction; others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." If we can agree that there is a place in education for both the babbling brook and the torrential flood, then we can discuss which best suits the CodeProject crowd at this time; but if you can't agree that both are reasonable and appropriate techniques, properly applied, then this discussion must, of necessity, end here.
The Grand Negus wrote:
"On some, have compassion, making a distinction; others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
You are confusing programming with religion and spirituality.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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No thanks. I prefer mayonnaise.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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The Grand Negus wrote:
"On some, have compassion, making a distinction; others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
You are confusing programming with religion and spirituality.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Eventually, Maunder will have to either force out people who don't fit his profile, or not let them in in the first place.
Not at all. This is what the spam / abuse feature is used for. It will serve. We've just debated it and determined that in fact it was correct in this instance as your real intent was to convert, not help.
The Grand Negus wrote:
In other words, it seems like Maunder gathered his membership under one pretense, but is now attempting to implement the "hidden agenda" on which he has been working so hard for seven years.
Full o Crap. It has always been MS CENTRIC. Nothing new here. No Hidden Agenda. But it does seem as if you have a problem with him, so the real question is why are you pissing in his pool?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Full o Crap. It has always been MS CENTRIC.
MS CENTRIC and MS EXCLUSIVE are not the same thing. There used to be, for example, a Java forum here that was as accessible as any other; now the Java forum has been deprecated, does not appear on the menus, and is on the way (I suppose) to being eliminated altogether. This, I believe, is a step in the wrong direction. And I say that as an active member of the CodeProject community!
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It is my understanding that all "lesser" sciences are simply branches of Theology - the study of God and His works.
Heh heh... more bias coloring. First off your stating that anything besides Theology is a lesser science. But the two are not even synonymous. Theology can only be Theory. Hence the root Theo. The "lesser" sciences can be proven. Religion is a personal matter wherein your own experience communicates its value. Its wholly personal. You can raise points and offer your concepts, but until experienced, it remains concept. You cannot teach religious experience. You can only offer patterns that may lead to enlightenment. But it is predicated upon the individual finding what they are seeking for. Science however can be proved. Such as parabolic structures reflecting to the focus which gives us the headlight. Such as mixing hydrogen and oxygen to produce water. In the context of our discussion there is a difference between the two. In the context of the religious experiencer there isn't. But again, we're talking about programming and not religion. Who is the Meta Programmer?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
And you don't see how this violates the spirit of this site?
No, because it wasn't like this when we started. All kinds of ideas about programming were, at that time, apparently welcome. This Microsoft-centric, Visual Studio only stuff is very recent, at least as regards the membership as a whole; it may have been in Maunder's mind all along, but the site was not, when we joined, so narrow in its viewpoint.
Welcome when appropriate. But you've abused that and now apparently we need the distinction. Thanks for screwing it up for the rest of us with your selfish desires.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
You are confusing programming with religion and spirituality.
No confusion. You're just (wrongly) thinking they can be successfully separated.
The Grand Negus wrote:
No confusion. You're just (wrongly) thinking they can be successfully separated.
Why do you assume the authority to qualify my thinking as wrong. We're talking about your opinion and mine. How is programming a computer spiritual and a religion? Please clarify this one, as this is a pretty large assumption. It can be spiritual, but only if the programmer is being spiritual in his programming. Again, I think you're way off base here.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Full o Crap. It has always been MS CENTRIC.
MS CENTRIC and MS EXCLUSIVE are not the same thing. There used to be, for example, a Java forum here that was as accessible as any other; now the Java forum has been deprecated, does not appear on the menus, and is on the way (I suppose) to being eliminated altogether. This, I believe, is a step in the wrong direction. And I say that as an active member of the CodeProject community!
Whatever, Java was only there because of J++ and then J# I assume. And it wasn't exclusive til you abused it. Thanks again for your selfishness and abuse in this area, as a few of us appreciated the non-MS bits we were allowed, but it would seem that we might be losing some now.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Never. He hijacked the religion and bent it to Rome's needs. He's a liar.
Well, then, you can console yourself with the thought that - according to tradition - he was beheaded by those very same Romans.
I don't need consoling. It doesn't bother me one way or the other. But your reference to whether he should have went his way was what prompted my response.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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No thanks. I prefer mayonnaise.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
No thanks. I prefer mayonnaise.
same here. :) at least now we understand why he is so sour. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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CaveFox wrote:
You just don't like to make friends do you?
No, I don't. As I've said many times before on these forums, I'm not here to make friends; I'm looking for disciples. I'm not looking for people who fit in here - I'm looking for the ones who don't. I'm looking for a few choice individuals to help me develop something significant before I go the way of all flesh. People who can think clearly, unemotionally, and creatively with extreme focus. People, in short, who are willing to learn and able to get things done. I've got no time or interest in contentious, undisciplined, lazy, cowardly, beligerant, sloppy, or otherwise defective individuals who do not want to improve themselves and their situation. Been there, done that. Waste of time.
The Grand Negus wrote:
>>You just don't like to make friends do you? No, I don't
F*CK ! you forgot me ! :rolleyes:
The Grand Negus wrote:
I'm not looking for people who fit in here - I'm looking for the ones who don't
exactly like a sect does :suss:
The Grand Negus wrote:
Waste of time
then get out.
Don't know where to start ?
Refer the Forums Guidelines and ask a friend