Is this a good thing?
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Bradml wrote:
how would you like it if I forced PHP on you with everything I posted?
It would be good (if you truly felt strongly about it) because your voice would be one among many, increasing the diversity of ideas available to me. You'd be passionately promoting PHP, I would be pushing Plain English concepts, someone else would say "C" is the answer, another would champion Visual Basic, and the result would be free and open discussion regarding - not people - but issues facing the programming community and how we all might deal with those issues.
But this would most likely lead to a language war and create factions in the community. IT is better if you make a suggestion based solely on the post. If someone asks me what Server Side Language is the best I will jump irhgt in there for PHP, but if they ask for the best way to enhance there coding practices then I'm not going to be saying "Um go to PHP.net and port the PHP compiler into C# because then you will know how to structure your applications".
Brad Australian -CAUTION- The previous statement may contain traces of PHP, and by reading this statement you negate the right to vote me down.
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The Grand Negus wrote:
I didn't edit the original - it was deleted by the moderator. All that was left was a message that said, "Deleted as Spam or Abuse". Then, not knowing whether or not my attempt to override the deletion would survive, I spent minimum time on a revision. Since it was clear that the powers that be did not value my contribution (in either paragraph), I was loathe to cast my pearls before swine a second time and instead addressed myself directly to the original poster. Why should I make the effort to contribute ideas to a site that arbitrarily deletes them?
Thanks. That clears up the confusion. I did't know how the "deletion" process worked, as your message was still in the same place it was originally with the original Bradml response still attached. I mistakenly assumed you'd just edited the message. I apologise for jumping to the wrong conclusion.
Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Actually, as I read the original thread, Brad was the one who desrved a bit of the delete-o-matic if it was called for at all.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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Taka Muraoka wrote:
is anyone qualified to say what they *think* someone else's motivations are, what they're thinking or feeling?
No, they're not. It's conjecture, but it's something the media loves to do and everyone from housewives to corporate executives love to chitchat about around the flowerpots and water coolers. It's a friggin' waste of time and can lead to disaster, yet even I do it. :~ Not to mention that it's hard enough for a person to describe their own thoughts and feelings.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
if you were running public forums and someone insisted on doing something despite you asking them on several occasions to stop, what would you do?
Stop what? Making any mention at all of their product? Blatant advertising of their product? Putting a link to their product in their sig? Where's the line, and why is the line different depending on who I am and what I've posted in the past? Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
It's conjecture, but it's something the media loves to do and everyone from housewives to corporate executives love to chitchat about around the flowerpots and water coolers. It's a friggin' waste of time and can lead to disaster, yet even I do it.
Having a bad day, Marc? :-) Of course it's conjecture but if no-one voiced their opinions, this place would be a very quiet one indeed :laugh: :rolleyes: You of all people should know that ;P
Marc Clifton wrote:
Stop what? Making any mention at all of their product? Blatant advertising of their product? Putting a link to their product in their sig? Where's the line, and why is the line different depending on who I am and what I've posted in the past?
Which gets back to the point of my original post. It doesn't matter one bit what exactly the admins are objecting to. They asked him several times to stop plugging his Plain English thing, he ignored it and so any offending posts get deleted. Entirely reasonable, IMHO. And *of course* one's past behaviour influences how people respond to you. If someone has persistently behaved like an asshole towards me in the past, I'm bound to give them less time and consideration today. /taka thinks for a minute... Yes, I'm pretty sure those are my feelings on the matter :laugh::laugh::laugh:
0 bottles of beer on the wall, 0 bottles of beer, you take 1 down, pass it around, 4294967295 bottles of beer on the wall. Awasu 2.2.4 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project.
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I'm sorry to ask a stupid question.... But who is Borg?
Brad Australian -CAUTION- The previous statement may contain traces of PHP, and by reading this statement you negate the right to vote me down.
"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us."
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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Google, Live Search, and MSN are such cool search aids[^]
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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No offense, but unless you are the admin making these decisions, I hardly think you're qualified to speak for them, their decision making processes, nor the communications that occurred. That said...
Taka Muraoka wrote:
his posts are now just deleted without any questions asked.
I disagree with that policy. The analogy would be, a person commits a petty crime and is put into prison for life. You can look at it two ways: Negus's post, based on his track record, is a weasely way of promoting his product. Or, Negus's post was a generous offer decently worded that stands on its own, regardless of his track record. But frankly, arguing this is pointless because I'm arguing what you think the admins think. I might as well contribute to that hypothetical thinking by saying that perhaps the admins simply told Negus, "any post you make mentioning English whatever will automatically be deleted, without question." Fair enough. As you say, they're the admins and run the site. I think that's the only factual statement one can make about the situation. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithNo, they are prosecuted each time the commit the same crime again. The refsual to look at what users require is what gets most people - like not admitting nested conditionals exist. "The customer is always right" but according to Osmiwhatever, only his views count.
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Is this a good thing?
No. Never the less, my thoughts about over-reaction and silliness aside, this is a private site and if those who are the host, or act as the host's agent find someone annoying enough to delete all a poster's threads out of hand then the time has come for that poster to realize they are unwelcome and move on. Harsh? Possibly. True? Most likely.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
Jerry Hammond wrote:
this is a private site and if those who are the host, or act as the host's agent find someone annoying enough to delete all a poster's threads out of hand then the time has come for that poster to realize they are unwelcome and move on.
But only two of my posts - out of hundreds - have been deleted by the CodeProject people. The message communicated to me by Maunder and the "lesser" moderators is mixed. See here[^] for a more complete summary.
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A couple of days ago a guy asked for assistance "getting over the beginner hump" in the General Discussions forum. He's a C# programmer; his request said, "I am looking for something that would walk a person through completion of a mildly complex program, starting from the design and planning phase and ending with a final release product." I offered to walk him through a re-write of our Plain English development system in C# - without cost or obligation. This offer was met, surprisingly, with strong resistance and nasty remarks from many; and - thankfully - with a few words of support from others. Fine; everyone has an opinion. But then the offer was "reported as spam or abuse" and deleted by the powers that be. Is this a good thing?
The Grand Negus wrote:
a re-write of our Plain English development system in C#
Your suggestion fails to meet the needs of the original poster asking for assistance. He needs a practical application from the real world as an example. A development environment or compiler, regardless of the target language, doesn't strike me as a good place to start.
The Grand Negus wrote:
without cost or obligation
I checked your website. The only way to obtain significant information on your product is to buy it. Your manifesto states that your 'royalty fees are reasonable'. A purchase is not 'without cost'. Royalty fees imply a contract, which is an obligation. Even your offer of 'free evaluation copies' fails to meet this criteria, since you restrict those to requestors that meet your approval, which is another form of contract.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Is this a good thing?
Yes it is. You consistently violate the standard of behavior here at Code Project. Contrary to what you've posted elsewhere in this thread, that standard is posted on the Lounge main page: do not post ads. Practically every response you make that I have ever seen can easily be construed as an advertisement for your "Plain English" product. This meets the definition of spam.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
No, they are prosecuted each time the commit the same crime again. The refsual to look at what users require is what gets most people - like not admitting nested conditionals exist. "The customer is always right" but according to Osmiwhatever, only his views count.
Trollslayer wrote:
No, they are prosecuted each time the commit the same crime again.
I didn't feel that his post was committing the same crime again. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
A couple of days ago a guy asked for assistance "getting over the beginner hump" in the General Discussions forum. He's a C# programmer; his request said, "I am looking for something that would walk a person through completion of a mildly complex program, starting from the design and planning phase and ending with a final release product." I offered to walk him through a re-write of our Plain English development system in C# - without cost or obligation. This offer was met, surprisingly, with strong resistance and nasty remarks from many; and - thankfully - with a few words of support from others. Fine; everyone has an opinion. But then the offer was "reported as spam or abuse" and deleted by the powers that be. Is this a good thing?
I would say this. It's probably time to quit crying wolf on stuff. Many at this site seem to have a very uptight presence here. Don't rock their boat or you get on their list permanently. You've been asked by many to quit plugging your stuff in every reply. You still do and frankly I don't see that changing and those crying for you to quit appear to be chipping their teeth. So my view is that you are what you are. CP is what it is. If you are going to be here then take the lumps, good and bad and don't cry for the referee's to make some ruling every time you feel you've been fouled. It's a public place and we actually don't have referee's. We have a commissioner of sport and that's about it. So do your thing, CP will do it's thing. But *would* everybody shut up and quit bitching about who is doing what? Freak! People get lives or something.
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But this would most likely lead to a language war and create factions in the community. IT is better if you make a suggestion based solely on the post. If someone asks me what Server Side Language is the best I will jump irhgt in there for PHP, but if they ask for the best way to enhance there coding practices then I'm not going to be saying "Um go to PHP.net and port the PHP compiler into C# because then you will know how to structure your applications".
Brad Australian -CAUTION- The previous statement may contain traces of PHP, and by reading this statement you negate the right to vote me down.
Bradml wrote:
if they ask for the best way to enhance there coding practices then I'm not going to be saying "Um go to PHP.net and port the PHP compiler into C# because then you will know how to structure your applications".
No, because that would be very difficult to do without assistance. But that is not at all what I offered. I didn't say, "Go here and take on a huge, do-it-yourself project"; I said, "Let me help you - at my own expense - to understand a wide variety of programming topics in a very concrete way with all the personalized help you require, using the language of your choice".
Bradml wrote:
IT is better if you make a suggestion based solely on the post.
Which is exactly what I did. He said, "I am looking for something that would walk a person through completion of a mildly complex program, starting from the design and planning phase and ending with a final release product" and I offered him exactly that. Why, then, was my post is deleted as "spam or abuse"? (Don't answer; the question is rhetorical.)
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A couple of days ago a guy asked for assistance "getting over the beginner hump" in the General Discussions forum. He's a C# programmer; his request said, "I am looking for something that would walk a person through completion of a mildly complex program, starting from the design and planning phase and ending with a final release product." I offered to walk him through a re-write of our Plain English development system in C# - without cost or obligation. This offer was met, surprisingly, with strong resistance and nasty remarks from many; and - thankfully - with a few words of support from others. Fine; everyone has an opinion. But then the offer was "reported as spam or abuse" and deleted by the powers that be. Is this a good thing?
If there is one thing I have learned, its that some of the people here are the most hypocritical people I have ever met. Not everyone, alot of them are.
Matt Newman
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The Grand Negus wrote:
How can one demonstrate one's "intelligence and willingness" if one is "shut up" and not allowed to express himself?
I'm sure there's a Chinese proverb or two about "silence being the highest form of wisdom" or something like that. ;P All kidding aside, I was just thinking, why not write some articles on natural language programming? Personally, I think it would be a fascinating subject. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
All kidding aside, I was just thinking, why not write some articles on natural language programming? Personally, I think it would be a fascinating subject.
But I did write a definitive article on natural language programming: it's the reference manual that comes with our product, together with the source code for a significant working example, and which was offered here, to any member, for free, for eight consecutive months. The offer also included personalized answers to any and all questions submitted by interested persons, and an opportunity to further the research in various ways (see www.osmosian.com/manifesto.pdf for details). I also posted, in these very forums, hundreds of answers to questions - sincere and otherwise - describing the technology, its unique characteristics, its strengths and weaknesses, and our vision for future development. Not to mention the hundreds of dollars we spent advertising on this site. You might (rightly) think it's a fascinating subject, Mark, but clearly the people who frequent these forums, and the powers that be, do not. The three articles we posted here on the subject, for example, were promptly deleted.
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Bradml wrote:
if they ask for the best way to enhance there coding practices then I'm not going to be saying "Um go to PHP.net and port the PHP compiler into C# because then you will know how to structure your applications".
No, because that would be very difficult to do without assistance. But that is not at all what I offered. I didn't say, "Go here and take on a huge, do-it-yourself project"; I said, "Let me help you - at my own expense - to understand a wide variety of programming topics in a very concrete way with all the personalized help you require, using the language of your choice".
Bradml wrote:
IT is better if you make a suggestion based solely on the post.
Which is exactly what I did. He said, "I am looking for something that would walk a person through completion of a mildly complex program, starting from the design and planning phase and ending with a final release product" and I offered him exactly that. Why, then, was my post is deleted as "spam or abuse"? (Don't answer; the question is rhetorical.)
Ok I'm tired of arguing now. I'm going to clarify my position: I don't think it is appropriate for you to plug every chance you get. Regardless of the situation you find a way to fit your product into it. I am not saying don't mention your Plain English Compiler at all, I am saying that I don't want to hear about it being applied in every different situation (Especially when technically this site is focused more towards Microsoft Technologies). I do think you are a very intelligent person with a lot to contribute to the community. My "Childish Snipes" were just the tired talking. Your ideas are very interesting and I would definitely read an article on the topic of Plain English compilation. I think that Chris has the right to delete what he deems as something he does not want on his site. He has handled the whole Plain English compiler plugging in a very decent way. And with that, G'Night
Brad Australian -CAUTION- The previous statement may contain traces of PHP, and by reading this statement you negate the right to vote me down.
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No, they are prosecuted each time the commit the same crime again. The refsual to look at what users require is what gets most people - like not admitting nested conditionals exist. "The customer is always right" but according to Osmiwhatever, only his views count.
Trollslayer wrote:
like not admitting nested conditionals exist
I freely and publicly admit that "nested conditionals exist" and assert that I have never said otherwise. It is wrong for you to put your words into my mouth. We do, however, argue that they are unnecessary and offer a very significant program - written conveniently and efficiently without them - as a convincing proof.
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Jerry Hammond wrote:
this is a private site and if those who are the host, or act as the host's agent find someone annoying enough to delete all a poster's threads out of hand then the time has come for that poster to realize they are unwelcome and move on.
But only two of my posts - out of hundreds - have been deleted by the CodeProject people. The message communicated to me by Maunder and the "lesser" moderators is mixed. See here[^] for a more complete summary.
Would you not agree that, bottom line, you possess no right to post here and the owner has every right to remove, delete, edit, or otherwise alter any post or content within these 'forums'?
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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No, they are prosecuted each time the commit the same crime again. The refsual to look at what users require is what gets most people - like not admitting nested conditionals exist. "The customer is always right" but according to Osmiwhatever, only his views count.
Trollslayer wrote:
"The customer is always right" but according to Osmiwhatever, only his views count.
Wrong twice. The customer is not always right; many customers want alcohol so they can binge drink - an end that you, yourself, deplore. And wrong to assert that I think only my views count. Surely, I'm not God and I don't know everything there is to know. But I do believe - strongly - in my views, and I back them up, in this case, with a significant and operational program that is offered with source code to any and all for study, modification, extension, and/or imitation as they see fit.
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Is this a good thing?
Let's see what happens: I hereby make the same offer as the Grand Negus regarding my proprietary, commercial, closed source Interacx[^] system. (heck, Negus didn't even provide a clickety link, IIRC!) The point being, that if I had made the offer, I doubt very much the post would have been deleted. Therefore, it isn't the post itself that appears to be the problem, but rather a bias towards the history of the poster. (Of course, I'm sure there's a bias toward my posts as well, just a different bias. :) ) IMO, I think deleting your post was going too far. Ideally, this post should be deleted as well if the playing field is level. Any takers? Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Ideally, this post should be deleted as well if the playing field is level.
I think this is what Jeremy was "preaching" about before he left. I do think that Mr. Grand is a victim of his approach, but I have already had that discussion with him.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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The Grand Negus wrote:
a re-write of our Plain English development system in C#
Your suggestion fails to meet the needs of the original poster asking for assistance. He needs a practical application from the real world as an example. A development environment or compiler, regardless of the target language, doesn't strike me as a good place to start.
The Grand Negus wrote:
without cost or obligation
I checked your website. The only way to obtain significant information on your product is to buy it. Your manifesto states that your 'royalty fees are reasonable'. A purchase is not 'without cost'. Royalty fees imply a contract, which is an obligation. Even your offer of 'free evaluation copies' fails to meet this criteria, since you restrict those to requestors that meet your approval, which is another form of contract.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Is this a good thing?
Yes it is. You consistently violate the standard of behavior here at Code Project. Contrary to what you've posted elsewhere in this thread, that standard is posted on the Lounge main page: do not post ads. Practically every response you make that I have ever seen can easily be construed as an advertisement for your "Plain English" product. This meets the definition of spam.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
A development environment or compiler, regardless of the target language, doesn't strike me as a good place to start.
Why not? He's said he's already "started" and is looking for a greater challenge. The project I propose begins with the development of an alternate interface and ends with the development of a compiler; in between are basic and useful applications like and editor, a dumper, and a page-layout facility.
Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
The only way to obtain significant information on your product is to buy it.
Not so. Send me an email with a reasonable request and see what happens.
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I would say this. It's probably time to quit crying wolf on stuff. Many at this site seem to have a very uptight presence here. Don't rock their boat or you get on their list permanently. You've been asked by many to quit plugging your stuff in every reply. You still do and frankly I don't see that changing and those crying for you to quit appear to be chipping their teeth. So my view is that you are what you are. CP is what it is. If you are going to be here then take the lumps, good and bad and don't cry for the referee's to make some ruling every time you feel you've been fouled. It's a public place and we actually don't have referee's. We have a commissioner of sport and that's about it. So do your thing, CP will do it's thing. But *would* everybody shut up and quit bitching about who is doing what? Freak! People get lives or something.
code-frog wrote:
If you are going to be here then take the lumps, good and bad and don't cry for the referee's to make some ruling every time you feel you've been fouled.
Agreed. As you well know, I've taken many lumps and have responded directly and civily to the "lumper" in every case. The only time I've "cried for the referee" is when a post got deleted because that gives an unfair advantage to the "lumpers" and makes the free exchange of ideas impossible.