Benefits of atheism
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You ought to change your name to Red Herring.
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Herring
Herring sandwiches......
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Geek Dinner (5th March) * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
If I should be in extreme pain at the end of my life, I can prematurely terminate my life without fear of some hideous reprisal.
Hell, why wait?
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Why give you the satisfaction?
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He's special...
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Humorous photo-shopping aside, of course, the truth is that as *reality* would have it, it is 'atheism' which is closing up shop. Damn, man! don't you pay attention to current events? Haven't you noticed that, as Europe is so clearly demonstrating, 'atheism' is a one-way ticket to national/cultural suicide. By the way, knowing how important predictions are to those who claim to have a "scientific" mind-set, what is happening to the European nations (what they are doing to themselves, actually) just happens to be a prediction of the Bible.
Ilíon wrote:
Haven't you noticed that, as Europe is so clearly demonstrating, 'atheism' is a one-way ticket to national/cultural suicide.
Blunt, but I like it. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic song (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Christian Graus wrote:
I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example.
A serial killer may disagree with you.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
Exactly, but no-one is celebrating his freedom to choose his own morality. That's kind of my point. Morality is defined by society, more than the individual, and enforced by society when an individual strays to far from the accepted norm.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian Graus wrote:
I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff
That has never stopped people, peoples, religion, and nations from doing that. History is riddled with such examples.
Of course it is. And the morality society defined at the time allowed for that. That really just proves my point, morality is a construct of the society we live in. Some things that seem obviously right or wrong to us, did not seem that way to people who lived in the past.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Ilíon wrote:
Haven't you noticed that, as Europe is so clearly demonstrating, 'atheism' is a one-way ticket to national/cultural suicide.
Blunt, but I like it. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic song (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Christian Graus wrote:
... I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example.
Sure you are free to decide that. Your decision would be false (in this case, 'false' meaning that the attempted redefinition of what is and is not "moral" is itself an immoral decision) ... which, of course, means there exists some objective criteria to differentiate 'moral' from 'immoral' ... but one is certainly *free* to decide to do anything one want to decide to do. One is free to decide that "up" is really "down." One's decision doesn't affect the truth of the matter.
Ilíon wrote:
One is free to decide that "up" is really "down." One's decision doesn't affect the truth of the matter.
That's hardly the point. The original article is obviously a joke, most of it could not be taken seriously, but on this one point, it's worth mentioning that if you don't derive your morality from the bible, then you still derive it from your childhood and your life experiences, more than anything by what people around you accept.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Ilíon wrote:
One is free to decide that "up" is really "down." One's decision doesn't affect the truth of the matter.
That's hardly the point. The original article is obviously a joke, most of it could not be taken seriously, but on this one point, it's worth mentioning that if you don't derive your morality from the bible, then you still derive it from your childhood and your life experiences, more than anything by what people around you accept.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Ilíon: "One is free to decide that "up" is really "down." One's decision doesn't affect the truth of the matter." Christian Graus: "That's hardly the point." But that is the point. AND, you're taking the last bit of what I said out of the context of what I said and then reading it far too literally.
Christian Graus wrote:
The original article is obviously a joke, most of it could not be taken seriously, but on this one point, it's worth mentioning that if you don't derive your morality from the bible, then you still derive it from your childhood and your life experiences, more than anything by what people around you accept.
Of course, and I didn't dispute any of that. However, you followed the above idea with this statement: "I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example." And this statement is literally not true. One *is* free to decide that it's moral to kill kill people and take their stuff. That one decides to say it's moral to do this doesn't make it so. One is as free to lie to oneself as to others. But the truth remains what it is regardless of the lie one has decided to tell oneself.
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:) That seems to be your posting style, at least here in the Lounge and on my blog as well. :) Take care, God bless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic song (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Ilíon: "One is free to decide that "up" is really "down." One's decision doesn't affect the truth of the matter." Christian Graus: "That's hardly the point." But that is the point. AND, you're taking the last bit of what I said out of the context of what I said and then reading it far too literally.
Christian Graus wrote:
The original article is obviously a joke, most of it could not be taken seriously, but on this one point, it's worth mentioning that if you don't derive your morality from the bible, then you still derive it from your childhood and your life experiences, more than anything by what people around you accept.
Of course, and I didn't dispute any of that. However, you followed the above idea with this statement: "I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example." And this statement is literally not true. One *is* free to decide that it's moral to kill kill people and take their stuff. That one decides to say it's moral to do this doesn't make it so. One is as free to lie to oneself as to others. But the truth remains what it is regardless of the lie one has decided to tell oneself.
Wow, this is convoluted.
Ilíon wrote:
That one decides to say it's moral to do this doesn't make it so.
Exactly my point, NO-ONE is free to decide what is moral, society will enforce it's values, if your values deviate too far from the norm.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Most of this is obviously meant in jest, and has no basis in reality. I just wanted to say:
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience.
No-one just 'makes up their own mind' on these things, they respond to social pressures and mores, be it in a church, or just in society as a whole. What is moral is generally accepted, with some slight variation. I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Most of this is obviously meant in jest, and has no basis in reality.
A very curious claim. My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.
Christian Graus wrote:
Colin Angus Mackay wrote: I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. No-one just 'makes up their own mind' on these things, they respond to social pressures and mores, be it in a church, or just in society as a whole. What is moral is generally accepted, with some slight variation. I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example.
There is a strong social consensus on some matters, but very divided opinion on others, where it is entirely possible and realistic to make up your own mind. I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise. People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind. Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre. Much of the debate inside the modern church is between those who wish to think independently --- and who frequently go through tortured Biblical interpretations to try to reconcile their beliefs with the Biblical text --- and those who want to follow (at least selected parts of) the Bible uncritically. Inbetween are those who are in a permanent state of a crisis of conscience over whether to follow their own concepts of right and wrong and those that they find in the Bible. There are plenty of Christians, for example, who cannot see any reason why homosexuality should be judged sinful and subject to penalties, whether imposed by society or by the church through policies of exclusion, but who nevertheless feel obliged to follow anti-homosexual Christian teachings on the matter.
John Carson
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Herring
Herring sandwiches......
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Geek Dinner (5th March) * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Sure, give me a few.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
The Crusades, the Third Reich and the KKK all claimed to be doing the work of Christ.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Found on the internet: Christians like to argue the benefits of being a Christian independent of the truth of its assertions. Here is the other side of the coin. 1. As an atheist, I am free of supernatural fear. Dying holds no great terror. Poor Christians are in constant dread of eternal torment or eternal boredom micromanaged like sheep for all eternity. Watch them panic at the very idea of death. They can't even say the word "die". They say "he passed on" or "he is resting in peace" or "he went to meet his maker" or "he is in a better place". Christians paint corpses to help create the illusion they are not really dead, just resting like some Norwegian Blue parrot, pining for the fjords. 2. I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. I am not compelled by the notions of ignorant folk who lived in the bronze age. I need not fear punishment from some sky god if my choices don't match those of the priests. 3. I am free to donate my money to charities that actually do good works rather than to a church that spends it on nebulous "godly" purposes such as gilt for the Vatican or fine embroidery for priestly robes. 4. If I should be in extreme pain at the end of my life, I can prematurely terminate my life without fear of some hideous reprisal. 5. I am free to inquire into any aspect or reality or science, and to make up my own mind on what is most likely true, and to change my mind. 6. I am free to enjoy any sexual activity I please that does not harm others without fear of some cosmic meat axe. 7. I don't have the strain of pretending to believe lies and unsupported articles of faith. I can be completely truthful. I speak for myself. I don't have to pretend I that agree totally with some ancient, obsolete, rigid system of beliefs. 8. When something goes wrong, I don't torment myself with the erroneous notion god is out to get me. I look at the rational causes of my predicament -- things I can correct. 9. I don't waste time and effort in useless prayers, sacrifices and ceremonies. “Praying is like a rocking chair — it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere.” ~ Gypsy Rose Lee 10. I don't sit there like a bump on a log waiting for god to rescue me. I don't expect god to rig the lottery for me. I don't take silly risks expecting god to protect me from my folly. 11. I talk to real friends, not an imaginary Jesus who can offer no more help than talking to myself. 12. I don't expose my kids to pedophiles an
I've said it before and I will say it again. Personally, I do not care what you believe as long as it DOES NOT HURT OTHER PEOPLE. If you believe flying monkeys will save your soul, fine. What the non-religious need to keep in mind is that for many of us religion does bring us comfort. I personally find praying relaxing and Torah study interesting. Obviously I am not strict on the rules of my religion (I just had shrimp) but the basic structure has been incorporated into who I am and makes me happy. What the relgious need to keep in mind is everyone is free to believe what they want. Religion should never be forced upon anyone. All the major religions promote loving everyone. Teach the other person if they are truly interested in your religion but do not condemn them because they don't agree with your beliefs.
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
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The Crusades, the Third Reich and the KKK all claimed to be doing the work of Christ.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Yep, thats riddled all right.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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But so are you special, at least, according to Christianity. Stars and galaxies die, but you are eternal.
I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.
-- A Stern Warning of Things to Come
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I've said it before and I will say it again. Personally, I do not care what you believe as long as it DOES NOT HURT OTHER PEOPLE. If you believe flying monkeys will save your soul, fine. What the non-religious need to keep in mind is that for many of us religion does bring us comfort. I personally find praying relaxing and Torah study interesting. Obviously I am not strict on the rules of my religion (I just had shrimp) but the basic structure has been incorporated into who I am and makes me happy. What the relgious need to keep in mind is everyone is free to believe what they want. Religion should never be forced upon anyone. All the major religions promote loving everyone. Teach the other person if they are truly interested in your religion but do not condemn them because they don't agree with your beliefs.
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
leckey wrote:
Religion should never be forced upon anyone.
Could you enforce that principle?
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Why give you the satisfaction?
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Why give you the satisfaction?
If avoiding pain is a reason to end it all - end it all.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
Most of this is obviously meant in jest, and has no basis in reality.
A very curious claim. My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.
Christian Graus wrote:
Colin Angus Mackay wrote: I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. No-one just 'makes up their own mind' on these things, they respond to social pressures and mores, be it in a church, or just in society as a whole. What is moral is generally accepted, with some slight variation. I don't believe you are free to decide that it's moral to kill people and take their stuff, for example.
There is a strong social consensus on some matters, but very divided opinion on others, where it is entirely possible and realistic to make up your own mind. I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise. People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind. Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre. Much of the debate inside the modern church is between those who wish to think independently --- and who frequently go through tortured Biblical interpretations to try to reconcile their beliefs with the Biblical text --- and those who want to follow (at least selected parts of) the Bible uncritically. Inbetween are those who are in a permanent state of a crisis of conscience over whether to follow their own concepts of right and wrong and those that they find in the Bible. There are plenty of Christians, for example, who cannot see any reason why homosexuality should be judged sinful and subject to penalties, whether imposed by society or by the church through policies of exclusion, but who nevertheless feel obliged to follow anti-homosexual Christian teachings on the matter.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.
Are you serious ?
John Carson wrote:
I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise.
I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always. Biblical morality is rarely if ever out of step with general morality in a way that should cause any serious conflict.
John Carson wrote:
People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind.
That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.
John Carson wrote:
Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre.
In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says. The KKK, for example.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )