Benefits of atheism
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Wow, this is convoluted.
Ilíon wrote:
That one decides to say it's moral to do this doesn't make it so.
Exactly my point, NO-ONE is free to decide what is moral, society will enforce it's values, if your values deviate too far from the norm.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian, You're confused; you're not thinking clearly. Is it any wonder you see convoluted where there was none? The consequences which may (or may not) immediately follow from one's attempt to "define" one's own "private morality" are quite a different matter from one's freedom to do so. We are all free to decide to believe any old stupid thing we may want to believe. But, that doesn't change reality and that doesn't make consequences go away.
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:) That seems to be your posting style, at least here in the Lounge and on my blog as well. :) Take care, God bless.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic song (audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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We'll find out soon enough, as these things are measured, beyond possibility of dispute which of us has the right of it. But speaking of stern warnings of things to come, I can assure you that you'll have no sympathy from me when you end up with the fate you freely chose. I can sympathize now, but things will be different then.
I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...
-- [LIVE] From Omicron Persei 8
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We'll find out soon enough, as these things are measured, beyond possibility of dispute which of us has the right of it. But speaking of stern warnings of things to come, I can assure you that you'll have no sympathy from me when you end up with the fate you freely chose. I can sympathize now, but things will be different then.
Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ? It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Yep, thats riddled all right.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ? How many is enough ? Slavery in general ? The Spanish Inquisition ? Burning of witches ? Any of this helping ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian, You're confused; you're not thinking clearly. Is it any wonder you see convoluted where there was none? The consequences which may (or may not) immediately follow from one's attempt to "define" one's own "private morality" are quite a different matter from one's freedom to do so. We are all free to decide to believe any old stupid thing we may want to believe. But, that doesn't change reality and that doesn't make consequences go away.
OK, I can see your angle now, and why you're twisting what I said.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...
-- [LIVE] From Omicron Persei 8
One problem many churches goers have is that they all speak the same language, it makes sense to those in their group, and they have no idea how they come across outside their own clique.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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So you reject the examples on the basis that you want more ? How many is enough ? Slavery in general ? The Spanish Inquisition ? Burning of witches ? Any of this helping ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Perhaps include these ... Massacre of American Indians by the US Cavalry. Communist revolutions in Russia and China. Japanese Feudal Systems. And the many imperial conquests around the globe.
Well, it becomes more and more tenuous, in terms of implicating the church, but yes, there is still plenty more to go, and the point was made with the three I listed. One is enough to prove the church has not been perfect through the ages.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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OK, I can see your angle now, and why you're twisting what I said.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Well, it becomes more and more tenuous, in terms of implicating the church, but yes, there is still plenty more to go, and the point was made with the three I listed. One is enough to prove the church has not been perfect through the ages.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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John Carson wrote:
My interpretation is that all of it is meant seriously and has plenty of basis in reality.
Are you serious ?
John Carson wrote:
I think you are missing the point, which is that Christians --- or at least a lot of them --- feel compelled to believe what the Bible tells them, even if the evidence, society and their conscience tell them otherwise.
I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always. Biblical morality is rarely if ever out of step with general morality in a way that should cause any serious conflict.
John Carson wrote:
People without a commitment to obedience to a divine power are much more free to make up their own mind.
That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.
John Carson wrote:
Of course everyone is influenced by society and a whole range of nonrational forces, but desired obedience to a divine power substantially reduces the remaining room for manoeuvre.
In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says. The KKK, for example.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Are you serious ?
Yes.
Christian Graus wrote:
I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always.
If you kept reading, you would see that I discuss a range of Christian positions.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.
Indeed it isn't always a good thing. But presumably the writer of the piece didn't think that (s)he personally was likely to go off the deep end inventing a destructive morality, and presumably thought that most others weren't likely to do so either. In any case, serial killers aren't serial killers because, after deep philosophical reflection, they decided that killing people represented a higher ethic. They are driven by a psychopathology --- generally either something chemical in their brain or the result of horrendous mistreatment.
Christian Graus wrote:
In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says.
Indeed, and I acknowledged that in my comments. However, they are not being "good Christians" when they behave this way. Moreover, it is clearly the case that many Christians are constrained in their behaviour and in their opinions by their belief that they should follow what the Bible says. This is easier to do, incidentally, when it comes to making declarations about how others should behave than when modifying one's own personal behaviour.
John Carson
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Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ? It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
"Dude, don't you see how santimonious this sounds ?" 'Sanctimonious' is meaningless if reality is as the 'atheists' want it to be. And it's pointless to be overly concerned about how people freely choose to misunderstand things clearly said. "It bugs me that Christians can have their own language, which will always turn people off and benefit no-one but the person who feels good for saying what they believe is right." I agree, far too many Christians are speaking "Christian-ese."
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I'll let you in on a secret: I am not eternal.
-- A Stern Warning of Things to Come
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Christian Graus wrote:
Are you serious ?
Yes.
Christian Graus wrote:
I think you're making a bold assumption about the inner thoughts of Christians, which may sometimes be true, but certainly not always.
If you kept reading, you would see that I discuss a range of Christian positions.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's arguable. However, as all the people who have brought up serial killers indicate, that's not always a good thing.
Indeed it isn't always a good thing. But presumably the writer of the piece didn't think that (s)he personally was likely to go off the deep end inventing a destructive morality, and presumably thought that most others weren't likely to do so either. In any case, serial killers aren't serial killers because, after deep philosophical reflection, they decided that killing people represented a higher ethic. They are driven by a psychopathology --- generally either something chemical in their brain or the result of horrendous mistreatment.
Christian Graus wrote:
In my experience, people who have a belief in Christianity often find their own morality in the Bible, rather than derive their morality from what the Bible actually says.
Indeed, and I acknowledged that in my comments. However, they are not being "good Christians" when they behave this way. Moreover, it is clearly the case that many Christians are constrained in their behaviour and in their opinions by their belief that they should follow what the Bible says. This is easier to do, incidentally, when it comes to making declarations about how others should behave than when modifying one's own personal behaviour.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
Yes
OK, let's look at this list: 1. As an atheist, I am free of supernatural fear. Dying holds no great terror. Poor Christians are in constant dread of eternal torment or eternal boredom micromanaged like sheep for all eternity. Watch them panic at the very idea of death. They can't even say the word "die". They say "he passed on" or "he is resting in peace" or "he went to meet his maker" or "he is in a better place". Christians paint corpses to help create the illusion they are not really dead, just resting like some Norwegian Blue parrot, pining for the fjords. This is actually patently false. Christans, more than anyone else, have no fear of death, because they believe they will live agan. Duh. 2. I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. I am not compelled by the notions of ignorant folk who lived in the bronze age. I need not fear punishment from some sky god if my choices don't match those of the priests. No-one is free to make their own moral choices, as I said above 3. I am free to donate my money to charities that actually do good works rather than to a church that spends it on nebulous "godly" purposes such as gilt for the Vatican or fine embroidery for priestly robes. This is just plain dumb. I actually tried to find a non Christian charity when I wanted to sponsor a third world child, and I could not find one. I now sponsor through World Vision. If there's one thing Christians do well, it's charity. 4. If I should be in extreme pain at the end of my life, I can prematurely terminate my life without fear of some hideous reprisal. I guess a lot of this list is based on Catholicism, which is very different to Christianity. This is a case in point. 5. I am free to inquire into any aspect or reality or science, and to make up my own mind on what is most likely true, and to change my mind. I am free to do that, also. 6. I am free to enjoy any sexual activity I please that does not harm others without fear of some cosmic meat axe. I am also free to do this. 7. I don't have the strain of pretending to believe lies and unsupported articles of faith. I can be completely truthful. I speak for myself. I don't have to pretend I that agree totally with some ancient, obsolete, rigid system of beliefs. I certainly do this. 8. When something goes wrong, I don't torment myself with the erroneous notion god is out to get me. I look at the r
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Found on the internet: Christians like to argue the benefits of being a Christian independent of the truth of its assertions. Here is the other side of the coin. 1. As an atheist, I am free of supernatural fear. Dying holds no great terror. Poor Christians are in constant dread of eternal torment or eternal boredom micromanaged like sheep for all eternity. Watch them panic at the very idea of death. They can't even say the word "die". They say "he passed on" or "he is resting in peace" or "he went to meet his maker" or "he is in a better place". Christians paint corpses to help create the illusion they are not really dead, just resting like some Norwegian Blue parrot, pining for the fjords. 2. I am free to make up my mind on all moral issues using my rational mind and conscience. I am not compelled by the notions of ignorant folk who lived in the bronze age. I need not fear punishment from some sky god if my choices don't match those of the priests. 3. I am free to donate my money to charities that actually do good works rather than to a church that spends it on nebulous "godly" purposes such as gilt for the Vatican or fine embroidery for priestly robes. 4. If I should be in extreme pain at the end of my life, I can prematurely terminate my life without fear of some hideous reprisal. 5. I am free to inquire into any aspect or reality or science, and to make up my own mind on what is most likely true, and to change my mind. 6. I am free to enjoy any sexual activity I please that does not harm others without fear of some cosmic meat axe. 7. I don't have the strain of pretending to believe lies and unsupported articles of faith. I can be completely truthful. I speak for myself. I don't have to pretend I that agree totally with some ancient, obsolete, rigid system of beliefs. 8. When something goes wrong, I don't torment myself with the erroneous notion god is out to get me. I look at the rational causes of my predicament -- things I can correct. 9. I don't waste time and effort in useless prayers, sacrifices and ceremonies. “Praying is like a rocking chair — it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere.” ~ Gypsy Rose Lee 10. I don't sit there like a bump on a log waiting for god to rescue me. I don't expect god to rig the lottery for me. I don't take silly risks expecting god to protect me from my folly. 11. I talk to real friends, not an imaginary Jesus who can offer no more help than talking to myself. 12. I don't expose my kids to pedophiles an
Since atheism involves the rejection of all religions, why only attack Christians?
BW
Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.
-- Neil Peart -
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Why give you the satisfaction?
If avoiding pain is a reason to end it all - end it all.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
"If avoiding pain is a reason to end it all - end it all." Really. Even in the best of circumstances, life generally gets "worse" as one ages. But, if one happens to be a European Infidel at this particular time in history, it very much looks as though life will soon be "worse" no matter what one's age. Wouldn't it be so much "better" to make the "rational" decision right now?
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You ought to change your name to Red Herring.
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I don't need your sympathies. I am not the one deluded by fairy tales. WTF man? Do you comprehend what you are saying? Charles Manson makes more sense...
-- [LIVE] From Omicron Persei 8
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
Charles Manson makes more sense
I miss Charlie since they moved him to Pelican Bay. :( I used to wave to him when I drove past Q to or from the wine country.
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance idiots like CSS.
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People, peoples, religion, and nations, not just "the Church". Anyhow, I'm off to bed. Its 1.30am where I am
But the church is led by the pope; and he is never wrong (papal infallibility).
-------- Micrologic Networks, India