Who's the Greater? The Developer, The SysAdmin, The NetAdmin or some other I.T. Guy?
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Apologies for the analogy, but .... Letting your developers have Admin rights is akin to letting the brick layers inpsect and signoff on the electrical for a house that's going up. Not a good idea. :)
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar]
Chris - I would concur, to a point. When I ran a development group, all I had to do to make the admins go away was to utter the 4 letter magical word: "unix". Poof, no where in site. :) There are three issues at play here: 1) arrogant developers. Since I'm one, I know what I'm talking about. 2) arrogant admins. Since I've suffered with them, I know they are out there. I had one admin tell me that my group did not need to log off every night. If they needed to get onto our machines, they knew how to "hack" in. This air of confidence made me curious, so I asked him how we did it. "Oh, we just toggle the power on the system. Then we can get to the login screen." I sat and stared at him for a while. :wtf: Did not illicit any response from him, so I inquired as to if he realized he might be crashing programs that might be running. Blank look again. 3) Managers that don't want to be bothered or are unable to understand the symbiotic relationship between the two groups. I spent some time educating the IT Manager as to how development groups operated. He was blown away... stunned by his own ignorance (not negative, just an observation). He also had the opportunity to educate me on some corporate directives he had to put in place. We came to an understanding relationship :)
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Overheard in a cubicle: "A project is just a bug under development." Seeking to rise above the intelligence of a one eared rabbit...
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For they have the power to change reality. There is no spoon.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The 9 things Microsoft should be announcing at MIX07 (but won't)
Or defy/dismiss it. :eek:
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Overheard in a cubicle: "A project is just a bug under development." Seeking to rise above the intelligence of a one eared rabbit...
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For they have the power to change reality. There is no spoon.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The 9 things Microsoft should be announcing at MIX07 (but won't)
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For they have the power to change reality. There is no spoon.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
The 9 things Microsoft should be announcing at MIX07 (but won't)
"...It will all be rendered in later by a farm of SGI boxes" I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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What about the truck drivers, driving down the road or the steel worker in Detroit or the coal miner in the holes.:laugh: I feel an old Alabama song coming on.;)
God Bless, Jason
DavidCrow wrote:
It would not affect me or my family one iota. My wife and I are in charge of when the tv is on, and what it displays. I do not need any external input for that.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
I feel an old Alabama song coming on
:laugh: I was thinking Bruce Springsteen.
BW
Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.
-- Neil Peart -
Albert Dadze wrote:
just trying to express some points
As I was. I have a great deal of respect for the one-man shop, he's got to sell, develop and maintain everything. And make a living at it! (hopefully) I specialize nowadays, but I have a very strong respect for those individuals who go independant contractors and survive doing it. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Great El, in that respect you are right. the one-man shop is, but that kind of do-it-all-myself person will not last to his 40s if he is in 30s:laugh::laugh::laugh:
AlbertDadze
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In my experience if you care one iota for a stable network, you keep the developers as far away from server and network administration as you can. Furthermore, at any given site, a company's developers create a tiny fraction of the software that has to run on the network. Why are developers so arrogant as a group that they believe they understand the full complexity of the network they are dealing with (and understand ALL the other projects going on as well)?
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Agreed.
"A good athlete is the result of a good and worthy opponent." - David Crow
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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In my experience if you care one iota for a stable network, you keep the developers as far away from server and network administration as you can. Furthermore, at any given site, a company's developers create a tiny fraction of the software that has to run on the network. Why are developers so arrogant as a group that they believe they understand the full complexity of the network they are dealing with (and understand ALL the other projects going on as well)?
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Why are developers so arrogant as a group that they believe they understand the full complexity of the network they are dealing with (and understand ALL the other projects going on as well)?
Tongue-in-cheek replies aside, i think all of the groups tend to forget that their job is, in essence, to serve the other groups. Ultimately, they should be working together to serve the customer, whether that's internal or external. I want a build server. Scratch that, i need a build server. And a crash logging server. And a source control server. And a server to generate reports on all this and more. Some handy feeds wouldn't go amiss either. Assuming i can come up with a reasonably good justification for this, it's ITs duty to make it happen and keep it running smoothly. They're holding the keys so that they can unlock stuff, not key-ring-whip anyone trying to get some work done. I've worked in places where everything was locked down. Places like this, people would get bored and shove cheeseburgers into their computers. Why? Who knows? To keep them warm...? Point is, no-one was trusted with any real control over the machines, and so no-one felt that they had any responsibility as far as keeping them working. Place i'm working now is going through a long overhaul, aiming towards SOX compliance. Suddenly, almost no-one has a login for the production database. Problem is, most of us need a login to accomplish parts of our jobs. Guess what, we're still doing our jobs... ;) Treat your workers like children, and that's what they'll act like. And i think we all remember the sorts of deviltry we were up to as kids...
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It appears that everybody is under the impression that I approve of the documentation. You probably also blame Ken Burns for supporting slavery.
--Raymond Chen on MSDN
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"...It will all be rendered in later by a farm of SGI boxes" I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
dan neely wrote:
I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
It sounds real familiar, but google didn't help any.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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dan neely wrote:
I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
It sounds real familiar, but google didn't help any.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I'm not surprised. Even assuming my memory didn't mangle it, the site it's from has been down for years.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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chuck norris duh!!
"there is no spoon" {me}
I'd be really nervous if I was the guy that voted that post down. Chuck Norris attacks when you are least expecting it.
Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder
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I'd be really nervous if I was the guy that voted that post down. Chuck Norris attacks when you are least expecting it.
Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder
:laugh:
"there is no spoon" {me}
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"...It will all be rendered in later by a farm of SGI boxes" I wonder if anyone else remembers where that line's from?
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
posted before I forget. It was from a site called detonate.net which posted 'bastardized' versions of several movies made by taking a number of screen captures and adding sarcastic comments to them. The Matrix, Blade, and IIRC one or two other movies were given this treatment back in 99 before the creator got bored and let the site die a year or three later.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer