How many of you use WPF
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I think people devote too much attention to sparkle and piz'az of the GUI. The GUI should be functional not some kind of art show.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
The GUI should be functional not some kind of art show.
Huh? Oh, no. You're thinking of a command line, a glass teletype UI. GUIs are all about the pizazz...
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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I'm thinking of just boycotting the technology. Why should I have to learn something new and complicated just for the sake of being up to date? I don't like WPF and how it makes thinks seem messy and more complicated. I should not have to write XML and hoolaguh boolahuh to make a button on a form. WinForms, GDI/+, OpenGL, and DirectX is all we need! Who is with me on this?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
I haven't found a use for it yet, neither have I found a use for anything other than winforms in any case for the type of stuff I work on. I guess if I was writing some kind of visual fluff stuff like a shopping portal or gardening software then maybe.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
It is possible to produce some really good applications without too much fuss
You mean really neat looking and shiny applications. A good application is functional and easy to use.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
You mean really neat looking and shiny applications. A good application is functional and easy to use.
Don't put words in my mouth because that's not what I mean. I mean business applications that can be put together quickly and without too much fuss. Yes, it's great to be able to put funky animations into an application, but it's better still to be able to deliver an application without too much hardwork. For instance - rather than having to hardwire menus and toolbars to determine whether or not an item can run, it's better to use routed commands and the rather neat Routed Commands architecture.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
I should not have to write XML and hoolaguh boolahuh to make a button on a form. WinForms, GDI/+, OpenGL, and DirectX is all we need!
WinForms? GDI? OpenGL? DirectX?! That's an awful lot of mess and complication there. Gimme a framebuffer and an event queue and i'll give you all the buttons you need. Well, unless you want properly-kerned, nicely-antialiased text on those buttons. Or want them scaled appropriately for the actual resolution of the display. I'll need a bit of extra support for that. Oh, and maybe you'd like to support screen readers and other accessibility tools for disabled users. Yeah, i'll need some extra stuff there too. Oh, you want an image drawn on the button? Loaded from a file at runtime? A vector image, drawn with proper antialiasing, blending, filtering... Yeah, no sense re-inventing the wheel - i guess i could use a bit of support on that front as well. Don't get me wrong - there are problems with WPF, first and foremost that it was released a decade later than it should have been. But there are reasons for a lot of it, and you should learn what those are before talking too much trash. ...And FWIW, you don't actually have to use XAML.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
You don't need antialising, or vector graphics on a button.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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I think people devote too much attention to sparkle and piz'az of the GUI. The GUI should be functional not some kind of art show.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
The GUI should be functional not some kind of art show.
Riiiiight. GUI is all about making it look so good you want to lick it.
"Every time Lotus Notes starts up, somewhere a puppy, a kitten, a lamb, and a baby seal are killed. Lotus Notes is a conspiracy by the forces of Satan to drive us over the brink into madness. The CRC-32 for each file in the installation includes the numbers 666." Gary Wheeler "You're an idiot." John Simmons, THE Outlaw programmer "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You don't develop for a living do you?
He said the other day what he does for a living. http://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/View.aspx?fid=2605&msg=2529900[^]
Yikes! Reading some of that thread reminded me entirely why I avoid the SB like the plague. What a lot of pointless, witless tripe fermenting in there. If I were Chris I'd dump that crap post haste and show the door to anyone who posted some of what I read there.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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You don't need antialising, or vector graphics on a button.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
:doh: Written a lot of graphical controls from scratch with no supporting framework or library have you? Never mind, after accidentally seeing some of the stuff you've posted in the soapbox just now, I really don't want to talk to you, ever.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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:doh: Written a lot of graphical controls from scratch with no supporting framework or library have you? Never mind, after accidentally seeing some of the stuff you've posted in the soapbox just now, I really don't want to talk to you, ever.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
Actually I first started programming for DOS. I would programs that had buttons that would respond to mouse clicks and such. Fun stuff.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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I'm thinking of just boycotting the technology. Why should I have to learn something new and complicated just for the sake of being up to date? I don't like WPF and how it makes thinks seem messy and more complicated. I should not have to write XML and hoolaguh boolahuh to make a button on a form. WinForms, GDI/+, OpenGL, and DirectX is all we need! Who is with me on this?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
I'm thinking of just boycotting the technology.
I better abandon it then, once people hear YOU'RE not using it.... The application that my company sells, uses WPF. Like all new technologies ( or old ones ) it's not perfect. The XAML syntax is too verbose, worse even than VB. There are plenty of bugs in WPF that MS have not fixed despite knowing about them, and some things I regard as design flaws ( there is no facility for managing your own memory, for example, you can't even call Dispose, it's not there ). However, the UI we get from using WPF is a major reason our program has been very successful, with an overwhelmingly positive response and sales beyond our expectations.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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You don't need antialising, or vector graphics on a button.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
Really? Huh. Funny how you figured all that out. Perhaps you'd like to tell me what i need in the machine schematic that the button overlays as well? I mean, i was under the impression that i needed a crisp, scalable cabinet projection with depth shading and a state machine-drive selection method, but that's just based on my interpretation of customer requirements and probably doesn't reflect reality at all - please, enlighten me as to what The Internet says i should do, and i'll pass that along. :rolleyes: Sorry, but you seem to be under the impression that there's some sort of a fixed threshold above which any enhancements to a GUI no longer benefit the end-user. In reality, there are many scenarios where having a GUI at all becomes detrimental to the user, a distraction or outright hindrance to their work. But in those scenarios that do benefit from a graphical user interface, ignoring the full potential of that graphical bit just because you can get by with less is somewhat akin to shooting yourself in the foot just because you have two of them. Here's a hint: if i put a good picture on a button, i may be able to allow the end-users to recognize it more quickly. If i make that button scalable, i may be able to size it appropriately for their screen, and avoid making it too small to reliably target or so large that it wastes space better devoted to displaying the data they're working on. As for anti-aliasing... Do you work exclusively on >= 300dpi displays, or do you just yearn for that retro "pixels everywhere" look...?
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
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Fortunately, I am still on XP along with my customer base. I don't have to worry so much about silly new three letter acronyms. Hopefully, by the time we migrate to something new, Vista will either be much improved or a bad memory.
CodeWiz51 -- Life is not a spectator sport. I came to play. Code's Musings | Code's Articles
WPF runs on XP
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
I should not have to write XML and hoolaguh boolahuh to make a button on a form. WinForms, GDI/+, OpenGL, and DirectX is all we need!
WinForms? GDI? OpenGL? DirectX?! That's an awful lot of mess and complication there. Gimme a framebuffer and an event queue and i'll give you all the buttons you need. Well, unless you want properly-kerned, nicely-antialiased text on those buttons. Or want them scaled appropriately for the actual resolution of the display. I'll need a bit of extra support for that. Oh, and maybe you'd like to support screen readers and other accessibility tools for disabled users. Yeah, i'll need some extra stuff there too. Oh, you want an image drawn on the button? Loaded from a file at runtime? A vector image, drawn with proper antialiasing, blending, filtering... Yeah, no sense re-inventing the wheel - i guess i could use a bit of support on that front as well. Don't get me wrong - there are problems with WPF, first and foremost that it was released a decade later than it should have been. But there are reasons for a lot of it, and you should learn what those are before talking too much trash. ...And FWIW, you don't actually have to use XAML.
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
Mode X on DOS, yo!
[pulls out cane and climbs out of rocking chair] why back in my day, we rolled our own 3D graphics and button tools, kerned our own characters, even actually had to know how a line algorithm worked, especially an AA based one. I did 3D backfaced culling color, shaded, and perspective all in ModeX. :-D I still have the books too! off-screen buffers and all! :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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I'm thinking of just boycotting the technology. Why should I have to learn something new and complicated just for the sake of being up to date? I don't like WPF and how it makes thinks seem messy and more complicated. I should not have to write XML and hoolaguh boolahuh to make a button on a form. WinForms, GDI/+, OpenGL, and DirectX is all we need! Who is with me on this?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
I wanted to use it for a little play-play application earlier today, when I was rudely reminded that my Intellisense doesn't work for XAML. I'm not getting in those waters without some kind of assist.
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Yikes! Reading some of that thread reminded me entirely why I avoid the SB like the plague. What a lot of pointless, witless tripe fermenting in there. If I were Chris I'd dump that crap post haste and show the door to anyone who posted some of what I read there.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
My recollection is that the soapbox was created post 9/11. It was created so there was still an unmoderated area for people to blow off steam and the lounge could become moderated, and have more rules of conduct. I think the soapbox has bred extremes, but it also keeps the lounge safe.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Shog9 wrote:
Mode X on DOS, yo!
[pulls out cane and climbs out of rocking chair] why back in my day, we rolled our own 3D graphics and button tools, kerned our own characters, even actually had to know how a line algorithm worked, especially an AA based one. I did 3D backfaced culling color, shaded, and perspective all in ModeX. :-D I still have the books too! off-screen buffers and all! :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
:D When i went from writing graphics-intensive programs for my own use (games, editors, trippy eyecandy...) on DOS (using a handful of libraries, some hand-tuned assembler, and a whole lot of custom supporting code) to writing text-heavy programs on Windows for the use of others (using mostly MFC and straight Win32), one of the first things that struck me was how little attention seemed to be paid to graphics... on a platform built for graphical user interfaces. It still amazes me. I remember implementing a simple GUI for a game using a simple markup language to describe controls, control groups, positioning algorithms, text alignment, etc. The actual controls were implemented from scratch to support this, and the whole thing scaled to whatever screen resolution was in use for the game at the time. Oh, and used back-buffering to reduce redraw time. Granted, it was somewhat memory intensive on the 4MB 486sx system i was using at the time, but i still didn't expect i'd have to wait quite so long to see Windows catch up... :rolleyes:
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
-
I'm thinking of just boycotting the technology. Why should I have to learn something new and complicated just for the sake of being up to date? I don't like WPF and how it makes thinks seem messy and more complicated. I should not have to write XML and hoolaguh boolahuh to make a button on a form. WinForms, GDI/+, OpenGL, and DirectX is all we need! Who is with me on this?
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
Quite possibly the future of computing is not the WinForms model that has served well but the newer technologies of WF/WCF/WPF. Although presently a little slower than WinForms, future versions may hold surprises for you in terms of performance and functionality. So look into the WF/WCF/WPF forum and follows the posts and links given by Karl, Pete and myself following this thread header [^]. And just because it looks new and complicated is not in itself a reason not to attempt to learn it.
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CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
You mean really neat looking and shiny applications. A good application is functional and easy to use.
Don't put words in my mouth because that's not what I mean. I mean business applications that can be put together quickly and without too much fuss. Yes, it's great to be able to put funky animations into an application, but it's better still to be able to deliver an application without too much hardwork. For instance - rather than having to hardwire menus and toolbars to determine whether or not an item can run, it's better to use routed commands and the rather neat Routed Commands architecture.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
For instance - rather than having to hardwire menus and toolbars to determine whether or not an item can run, it's better to use routed commands and the rather neat Routed Commands architecture.
I think thats all unnecessary.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
For instance - rather than having to hardwire menus and toolbars to determine whether or not an item can run, it's better to use routed commands and the rather neat Routed Commands architecture.
I think thats all unnecessary.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
I think thats all unnecessary.
You would disagree with yourself if you actually knew what routed commands are.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] All of life is just a big rambling blog post.
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I wanted to use it for a little play-play application earlier today, when I was rudely reminded that my Intellisense doesn't work for XAML. I'm not getting in those waters without some kind of assist.
Brady Kelly wrote:
my Intellisense doesn't work for XAML.
That doesn't sound right. Works for me.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] All of life is just a big rambling blog post.
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:D When i went from writing graphics-intensive programs for my own use (games, editors, trippy eyecandy...) on DOS (using a handful of libraries, some hand-tuned assembler, and a whole lot of custom supporting code) to writing text-heavy programs on Windows for the use of others (using mostly MFC and straight Win32), one of the first things that struck me was how little attention seemed to be paid to graphics... on a platform built for graphical user interfaces. It still amazes me. I remember implementing a simple GUI for a game using a simple markup language to describe controls, control groups, positioning algorithms, text alignment, etc. The actual controls were implemented from scratch to support this, and the whole thing scaled to whatever screen resolution was in use for the game at the time. Oh, and used back-buffering to reduce redraw time. Granted, it was somewhat memory intensive on the 4MB 486sx system i was using at the time, but i still didn't expect i'd have to wait quite so long to see Windows catch up... :rolleyes:
Citizen 20.1.01
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
Shog9 wrote:
I remember implementing a simple GUI for a game using a simple markup language to describe controls, control groups, positioning algorithms, text alignment, etc. The actual controls were implemented from scratch to support this, and the whole thing scaled to whatever screen resolution was in use for the game at the time.
I remember WRITING those. The tools I had back then were actually pretty amazing. It demonstrates both sides to the argument of having a foundation class set. When you settle for one tool that works for everyone you settle for ... well, mediocrity. But there were hundreds of us who reinvented the wheel with anywhere from 10% to as much as 99% overlap between our tools and SDKs. I wrote my own resource language structure, I built my own code-generator for the resource language, I hand tuned my own base libraries, and build low to high level. No one will ever remember the QWIKlib GUI and graphics set, it was retired when I moved to IrisGL, and then that to OpenGL. But even OpenGL didn't have some of the capability my old qwiklib had. Even Windows does not. Even though we all went common interface, we still spend all our learning and relearning a new SDK every so often. We never seem to catch up to the tools we had in the past. Pity. Some of us had some pretty nice stuff, it just didn't match someone else's pretty nice stuff, and then again, someone else's pretty nice stuff. There was a LOT of pretty nice stuff floating around out there.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."