I want to be Gordan Ramsay
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So I am starting a new job tomorrow, I have just given up running a team of Performance Engineer's, so I am doing a mental postmortem on my time as a team lead (going back to being lead). The team seemed to really like me running the team, and where bummed out when I decided to move on. Looking back I did my best to be a nice guy. I followed the "Starbucks" model of leading, always asking, never ordering, always praising, never criticizing, always leading by example, never undermining people. Now, I now this gets the best results, people seem to respond very well to the approach. However I gotta tell you, I am a little bit jealous of Gordon Ramsay (I know most of his attitude is probably for the benefit of TV). There where times, I had to catch myself about to say:- * Go back and do it right this time * Shut up and listen * If you don't know how to do it, don't ask me, figure it out, you'll learn more than way. * Stop waffling and give it to me straight, do you know the solution ? * etc In a nutshell, I envied a very direct management style. Now I made a very deliberate mental decision not to pursue this route, as I thought given the personalities on the team, it would be a disaster, but I did tire of massaging peoples feelings in order to get results. Anyone share my experience ?
Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire" Blogging @ Keratoconus Watch If its fast and ugly, they will use it and curse you; if its slow they will not use it -- David Cheriton
Gordon Ramsey gets his style directly from Marco White who gets it from a long standing tradition of highly tempermental french chefs. Ramsey is *extremely* mild by comparison with White and others from some of the stories I've heard. Personally I think Ramsey is an ideal leader and motivator and anyone would do well to follow his style. He succeeds precisely becuase he never actually gets angry or personally pissed off at people and he holds himself to the highest standards possible at all times. If you watch him closely he *always* has a carefully crafted reason for seemingly going off at people and in the end they are absolutely loyal and hard working because Ramsey exhibits and follows all the skills and attitudes he expects of his staff. Where it can all go horribly wrong is when the person in charge exhibits this type of leadership but without holding themselves to the standards they expect and pressuring and yelling at people without purpose or because they are genuinely angry at them. When Ramsey thinks a person can do more he pressures them to do more and is very forthcoming with his praise when they do well, but when he thinks they can't do any better he acts more dissapointed than anything else and doesn't waste any more time on them. I've led people many many times for work from a very young age and you absolutely can not be their best friend and their leader and expect to get the most out of people. You either have people that will be useful members of your team or they won't in which case it's best to get rid of them as quickly as possible before they bring everyone down. I've rarely ever shouted at people like he does but if you cultivate the right attitude of respect often all you need to show is dissapointment to get the same effect. Running a kitchen brigade is a much higher pressure scenario than any office job, not unlike soldiers in the thick of battle, so what is appropriate there isn't exactly appropriate in an office but the concept is exactly the same just toned down slightly.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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Ray Kinsella wrote:
gotta tell you, I am a little bit jealous of Gordon Ramsay
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: Why would you be jealous of some maniac who likes to humiliate people? Getting hysterical and belittling people is not a good role model as far as I am concerned.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesWow, you really don't get it do you? There's a whole layer to what he's doing that's gone right over your head. He absolutely never, at least never on camera that I've ever seen, get's "hysterical" or even slightly angry. He exhibits a lot of anger but I doubt he feels any. Every word he says is carefully cultivated to get the most out of people. People who, as is common these days, have probably never attempted anything more difficult than 10% of their capabilities. He never ever seems to yell at anyone who he believes incapable of more. Anyone who want's to make something of their life and be more than a cog in a machine should be envious of what he's accomplished.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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Gordon Ramsey gets his style directly from Marco White who gets it from a long standing tradition of highly tempermental french chefs. Ramsey is *extremely* mild by comparison with White and others from some of the stories I've heard. Personally I think Ramsey is an ideal leader and motivator and anyone would do well to follow his style. He succeeds precisely becuase he never actually gets angry or personally pissed off at people and he holds himself to the highest standards possible at all times. If you watch him closely he *always* has a carefully crafted reason for seemingly going off at people and in the end they are absolutely loyal and hard working because Ramsey exhibits and follows all the skills and attitudes he expects of his staff. Where it can all go horribly wrong is when the person in charge exhibits this type of leadership but without holding themselves to the standards they expect and pressuring and yelling at people without purpose or because they are genuinely angry at them. When Ramsey thinks a person can do more he pressures them to do more and is very forthcoming with his praise when they do well, but when he thinks they can't do any better he acts more dissapointed than anything else and doesn't waste any more time on them. I've led people many many times for work from a very young age and you absolutely can not be their best friend and their leader and expect to get the most out of people. You either have people that will be useful members of your team or they won't in which case it's best to get rid of them as quickly as possible before they bring everyone down. I've rarely ever shouted at people like he does but if you cultivate the right attitude of respect often all you need to show is dissapointment to get the same effect. Running a kitchen brigade is a much higher pressure scenario than any office job, not unlike soldiers in the thick of battle, so what is appropriate there isn't exactly appropriate in an office but the concept is exactly the same just toned down slightly.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
Him I read Ramsay's autobiography, so have come across Marco Pierre White before, there is no love lost between them now, or at least thats how it appears. Its funny, because they are very alike in many ways. I share many of your sentiments and you articulated my feelings quiet well. What I like about Ramsay is unwavering commitment to getting the job done right, he has a no bullsh*t approach and impeccability standards to which he holds everyone to equally, including himself. People are motivated by him and you can see his passion infect them, they _want_ to excel. I kind-of felt that because I had to cajole my staff a little, with praise and acknowledgment to get them up to performance. I was never able to stir up a passion for our work, like don't mis-understand me, the work we did was excellent and their contribution to it was fantastic, really good, but I never got a sense of passion for IT or commitment to quality. Its a commitment I hold very deeply, its much more than a job for me, but I buried the times I deeply want to challenge them. I worried that I might offend, be seen as ogre of a boss, rather than a leader. So whereas we got a great job done, and although I thought them a huge amount, I still think there was a missed opportunity, to stir something great!
Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire" Blogging @ Keratoconus Watch If its fast and ugly, they will use it and curse you; if its slow they will not use it -- David Cheriton
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Wow, you really don't get it do you? There's a whole layer to what he's doing that's gone right over your head. He absolutely never, at least never on camera that I've ever seen, get's "hysterical" or even slightly angry. He exhibits a lot of anger but I doubt he feels any. Every word he says is carefully cultivated to get the most out of people. People who, as is common these days, have probably never attempted anything more difficult than 10% of their capabilities. He never ever seems to yell at anyone who he believes incapable of more. Anyone who want's to make something of their life and be more than a cog in a machine should be envious of what he's accomplished.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
John C wrote:
Wow, you really don't get it do you? There's a whole layer to what he's doing that's gone right over your head.
Yes i do.
John C wrote:
He absolutely never, at least never on camera that I've ever seen, get's "hysterical" or even slightly angry.
Hissing fits qualify as angry.
John C wrote:
Every word he says is carefully cultivated to get the most out of humiliate people.
In my opinion.
John C wrote:
He never ever seems to yell at anyone who he believes incapable of more.
So he just humiliates people he doesn't like.
John C wrote:
Anyone who want's to make something of their life and be more than a cog in a machine should be envious of what he's accomplished.
You mistake hubris for character. I have to admit that I haven't watched, nor would I ever watch, his show based on the promotional advertisements for it. Supposedly the advertisements are meant to encapsulate the essence of the show. If they do then watching it would be a waste of time. I don't equate belligerence with sincerity. Compassionate people are what are in short supply, not prima donnas like Gordon Ramsay. :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Gordon Ramsey gets his style directly from Marco White who gets it from a long standing tradition of highly tempermental french chefs. Ramsey is *extremely* mild by comparison with White and others from some of the stories I've heard. Personally I think Ramsey is an ideal leader and motivator and anyone would do well to follow his style. He succeeds precisely becuase he never actually gets angry or personally pissed off at people and he holds himself to the highest standards possible at all times. If you watch him closely he *always* has a carefully crafted reason for seemingly going off at people and in the end they are absolutely loyal and hard working because Ramsey exhibits and follows all the skills and attitudes he expects of his staff. Where it can all go horribly wrong is when the person in charge exhibits this type of leadership but without holding themselves to the standards they expect and pressuring and yelling at people without purpose or because they are genuinely angry at them. When Ramsey thinks a person can do more he pressures them to do more and is very forthcoming with his praise when they do well, but when he thinks they can't do any better he acts more dissapointed than anything else and doesn't waste any more time on them. I've led people many many times for work from a very young age and you absolutely can not be their best friend and their leader and expect to get the most out of people. You either have people that will be useful members of your team or they won't in which case it's best to get rid of them as quickly as possible before they bring everyone down. I've rarely ever shouted at people like he does but if you cultivate the right attitude of respect often all you need to show is dissapointment to get the same effect. Running a kitchen brigade is a much higher pressure scenario than any office job, not unlike soldiers in the thick of battle, so what is appropriate there isn't exactly appropriate in an office but the concept is exactly the same just toned down slightly.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
John C wrote:
Running a kitchen brigade is a much higher pressure scenario than any office job, not unlike soldiers in the thick of battle,
Have you ever been in combat? Obviously you never have or you would know that people like that get fragged - end of story. Great leaders in combat are compassionate and are willing to do everything in their power to bring inexperienced troops up to super human levels of performance. They are not afraid to step out in front of their comrades in arms. Belligerent leaders don't last very long down range. :doh: Fragging, if you are not familiar with the term, is not so friendly fire from friendly forces.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
John C wrote:
Wow, you really don't get it do you? There's a whole layer to what he's doing that's gone right over your head.
Yes i do.
John C wrote:
He absolutely never, at least never on camera that I've ever seen, get's "hysterical" or even slightly angry.
Hissing fits qualify as angry.
John C wrote:
Every word he says is carefully cultivated to get the most out of humiliate people.
In my opinion.
John C wrote:
He never ever seems to yell at anyone who he believes incapable of more.
So he just humiliates people he doesn't like.
John C wrote:
Anyone who want's to make something of their life and be more than a cog in a machine should be envious of what he's accomplished.
You mistake hubris for character. I have to admit that I haven't watched, nor would I ever watch, his show based on the promotional advertisements for it. Supposedly the advertisements are meant to encapsulate the essence of the show. If they do then watching it would be a waste of time. I don't equate belligerence with sincerity. Compassionate people are what are in short supply, not prima donnas like Gordon Ramsay. :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
I have to admit that I haven't watched, nor would I ever watch, his show based on the promotional advertisements for it. Supposedly the advertisements are meant to encapsulate the essence of the show. If they do then watching it would be a waste of time. I don't equate belligerence with sincerity. Compassionate people are what are in short supply, not prima donnas like Gordon Ramsay.
So you haven't even seen the show, and yet you have an opinion on it?
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John C wrote:
Wow, you really don't get it do you? There's a whole layer to what he's doing that's gone right over your head.
Yes i do.
John C wrote:
He absolutely never, at least never on camera that I've ever seen, get's "hysterical" or even slightly angry.
Hissing fits qualify as angry.
John C wrote:
Every word he says is carefully cultivated to get the most out of humiliate people.
In my opinion.
John C wrote:
He never ever seems to yell at anyone who he believes incapable of more.
So he just humiliates people he doesn't like.
John C wrote:
Anyone who want's to make something of their life and be more than a cog in a machine should be envious of what he's accomplished.
You mistake hubris for character. I have to admit that I haven't watched, nor would I ever watch, his show based on the promotional advertisements for it. Supposedly the advertisements are meant to encapsulate the essence of the show. If they do then watching it would be a waste of time. I don't equate belligerence with sincerity. Compassionate people are what are in short supply, not prima donnas like Gordon Ramsay. :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesWow, you never watched any of his shows but you feel quite comfortable making a judgement about him based on the advertisements that are taken out of context. Well believe what you want but I believe that he's a shining example of excellence, hard work and most of all success and that's just about the greatest gift one human being can give to another.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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JimmyRopes wrote:
I have to admit that I haven't watched, nor would I ever watch, his show based on the promotional advertisements for it. Supposedly the advertisements are meant to encapsulate the essence of the show. If they do then watching it would be a waste of time. I don't equate belligerence with sincerity. Compassionate people are what are in short supply, not prima donnas like Gordon Ramsay.
So you haven't even seen the show, and yet you have an opinion on it?
martin_hughes wrote:
So you haven't even seen the show, and yet you have an opinion on it?
If the advertisements are an accurate indication of the show I have seen enough. :doh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Wow, you never watched any of his shows but you feel quite comfortable making a judgement about him based on the advertisements that are taken out of context. Well believe what you want but I believe that he's a shining example of excellence, hard work and most of all success and that's just about the greatest gift one human being can give to another.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
John C wrote:
Wow, you never watched any of his shows but you feel quite comfortable making a judgement about him based on the advertisements that are taken out of context
If they are meant to wet my appetite then they have failed miserably.
John C wrote:
I believe that he's a shining example of excellence, hard work and most of all success and that's just about the greatest gift one human being can give to another
Depends on your definition of success.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
So I am starting a new job tomorrow, I have just given up running a team of Performance Engineer's, so I am doing a mental postmortem on my time as a team lead (going back to being lead). The team seemed to really like me running the team, and where bummed out when I decided to move on. Looking back I did my best to be a nice guy. I followed the "Starbucks" model of leading, always asking, never ordering, always praising, never criticizing, always leading by example, never undermining people. Now, I now this gets the best results, people seem to respond very well to the approach. However I gotta tell you, I am a little bit jealous of Gordon Ramsay (I know most of his attitude is probably for the benefit of TV). There where times, I had to catch myself about to say:- * Go back and do it right this time * Shut up and listen * If you don't know how to do it, don't ask me, figure it out, you'll learn more than way. * Stop waffling and give it to me straight, do you know the solution ? * etc In a nutshell, I envied a very direct management style. Now I made a very deliberate mental decision not to pursue this route, as I thought given the personalities on the team, it would be a disaster, but I did tire of massaging peoples feelings in order to get results. Anyone share my experience ?
Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire" Blogging @ Keratoconus Watch If its fast and ugly, they will use it and curse you; if its slow they will not use it -- David Cheriton
I think Ramsay goes to far, but I'm sick and tired of the modern emotional leadership style which prides itself on understanding how you feel about your work rather than on than results. I'm tired of having to couch criticisms in hopelessly ambiguous language. Companies are destroying themselves on the altar of political correctness.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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John C wrote:
Wow, you never watched any of his shows but you feel quite comfortable making a judgement about him based on the advertisements that are taken out of context
If they are meant to wet my appetite then they have failed miserably.
John C wrote:
I believe that he's a shining example of excellence, hard work and most of all success and that's just about the greatest gift one human being can give to another
Depends on your definition of success.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Depends on your definition of success.
By all indications he's the most sucessful chef to ever come out of great brittain but just as importantly he's a hugely successful businessman who got where he is from dedication, hard work and high personal standards from very humble means. Anyway since you know nothing about him it's a little pointless to enter in to a discussion about it so I'll leave the last word to you...make it good! ;)
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
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John C wrote:
Running a kitchen brigade is a much higher pressure scenario than any office job, not unlike soldiers in the thick of battle,
Have you ever been in combat? Obviously you never have or you would know that people like that get fragged - end of story. Great leaders in combat are compassionate and are willing to do everything in their power to bring inexperienced troops up to super human levels of performance. They are not afraid to step out in front of their comrades in arms. Belligerent leaders don't last very long down range. :doh: Fragging, if you are not familiar with the term, is not so friendly fire from friendly forces.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
So I am starting a new job tomorrow, I have just given up running a team of Performance Engineer's, so I am doing a mental postmortem on my time as a team lead (going back to being lead). The team seemed to really like me running the team, and where bummed out when I decided to move on. Looking back I did my best to be a nice guy. I followed the "Starbucks" model of leading, always asking, never ordering, always praising, never criticizing, always leading by example, never undermining people. Now, I now this gets the best results, people seem to respond very well to the approach. However I gotta tell you, I am a little bit jealous of Gordon Ramsay (I know most of his attitude is probably for the benefit of TV). There where times, I had to catch myself about to say:- * Go back and do it right this time * Shut up and listen * If you don't know how to do it, don't ask me, figure it out, you'll learn more than way. * Stop waffling and give it to me straight, do you know the solution ? * etc In a nutshell, I envied a very direct management style. Now I made a very deliberate mental decision not to pursue this route, as I thought given the personalities on the team, it would be a disaster, but I did tire of massaging peoples feelings in order to get results. Anyone share my experience ?
Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire" Blogging @ Keratoconus Watch If its fast and ugly, they will use it and curse you; if its slow they will not use it -- David Cheriton
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Wow, you really don't get it do you? There's a whole layer to what he's doing that's gone right over your head. He absolutely never, at least never on camera that I've ever seen, get's "hysterical" or even slightly angry. He exhibits a lot of anger but I doubt he feels any. Every word he says is carefully cultivated to get the most out of people. People who, as is common these days, have probably never attempted anything more difficult than 10% of their capabilities. He never ever seems to yell at anyone who he believes incapable of more. Anyone who want's to make something of their life and be more than a cog in a machine should be envious of what he's accomplished.
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
I've seen the him on TV in the UK and bits from a couple episodes of his goofy American show. From what I could tell he *greatly* overacts on the American version. You can easily get 110% out of people without carrying on like a bullying thug, which, for the episodes I saw, is exactly how he likes to come across. From what I've read about most of the American reality TV shows, this is all done for ratings, and to provide "entertainment", just like the Apprentice, it's hardly representative of reality.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
Depends on your definition of success.
By all indications he's the most sucessful chef to ever come out of great brittain but just as importantly he's a hugely successful businessman who got where he is from dedication, hard work and high personal standards from very humble means. Anyway since you know nothing about him it's a little pointless to enter in to a discussion about it so I'll leave the last word to you...make it good! ;)
"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." - Walter Bagehot
I saw an interview with him last week - he said his restaurant business will do a 10 million pound turnover this year. I think any reasonable person would class that as success. Anyone who has ever managed or been managed will also tell you that level of success is not due to yelling at people. However, to denigrate him, his methods and his success based on a couple of TV adverts is not very intellectually honest. I'm not a fan of the 'hells kitchen' TV series (and I get the impression neither is he) but on Kitchen Nightmares, when he is in real businesses, with real people and real financial problems, you can tell when he gets enthusiastic about the possibility of success for someone. The f-words and swearing are advertised heavily for the TV show - it's a gimmick to drum up controversy and get the punters in. Certainly I would not watch a show if it was just an hour of profanities, but Kitchen Nightmares is a fundamental study into how to be successful in business. It's about taking it seriously, not pretending to yourself and getting over your pretensions of grandeur and producing a product, profitably, that people want to buy. What he does is force people to get serious and stop leaving in dreamland, as most of the people he goes to help in 'kitchen nightmares' are in some sort of self-congratulatory state of denial about their business, their skills and their life direction. The people he swears and yells at are usually performing badly, ripping off the owner or refusing to take a critical look at themselves. I've never seen him belittle someone who didn't deserve it (at least, from the editors point of view). In fact I have seen him tear strips off restaurant managers who belittle their own staff. If you watch him, he does good cop bad cop - making sure everyone knows he is serious and won't take any crap from anyone, and then zeroing in on the people who are willing to put in the effort, praising them and pushing them forwards. Not all the businesses he goes into go on to succeed - I would suggest that most of these are due to the owner being unwilling to change, rather than any failure on Gordon's part. Anyone who is interested in managing people and running a profitable business would do well to watch the show. If you're offended by a bit of swearing. Personally, going back to the OP - the softly softly approach works for the most part, but usually in large businesses who can afford to be inefficient for the sake of avoiding conflict, but I think a bit of 'buck stops here' a
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I think Ramsay goes to far, but I'm sick and tired of the modern emotional leadership style which prides itself on understanding how you feel about your work rather than on than results. I'm tired of having to couch criticisms in hopelessly ambiguous language. Companies are destroying themselves on the altar of political correctness.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
You'd probably enjoy the writings of Jack Welch, former CEO of GE. One of his big items is getting people to talk frankly, and hold people accountable. This means rejecting completely mindless corporate double-speak. If someone isn't performing, say so and get them to perform or leave. That's what you're there for.
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So I am starting a new job tomorrow, I have just given up running a team of Performance Engineer's, so I am doing a mental postmortem on my time as a team lead (going back to being lead). The team seemed to really like me running the team, and where bummed out when I decided to move on. Looking back I did my best to be a nice guy. I followed the "Starbucks" model of leading, always asking, never ordering, always praising, never criticizing, always leading by example, never undermining people. Now, I now this gets the best results, people seem to respond very well to the approach. However I gotta tell you, I am a little bit jealous of Gordon Ramsay (I know most of his attitude is probably for the benefit of TV). There where times, I had to catch myself about to say:- * Go back and do it right this time * Shut up and listen * If you don't know how to do it, don't ask me, figure it out, you'll learn more than way. * Stop waffling and give it to me straight, do you know the solution ? * etc In a nutshell, I envied a very direct management style. Now I made a very deliberate mental decision not to pursue this route, as I thought given the personalities on the team, it would be a disaster, but I did tire of massaging peoples feelings in order to get results. Anyone share my experience ?
Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire" Blogging @ Keratoconus Watch If its fast and ugly, they will use it and curse you; if its slow they will not use it -- David Cheriton
GR isn't tough or nasty by choice; he's passionate about his vocation, and his passion shows in everything he does, not just the bollockings. If you've got that kind of passion, go with it; everyone will appreciate where you're coming from. Trying to fake it will amost certainly be a disaster, though; you're likely come over as being manipulative.
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Josh Gray wrote:
His TV shows are completely staged.
This would appear to be true based on an article I read where a group of business people got to meet him for a few hours. It seems that some of them were disappointed by his gentlemanly behaviour and refused to leave until he agreed, very reluctantly, to swear at them! Rich