all the local developer jobs are now "Web Developer"
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Simon Stevens wrote:
I get to analyse and decide on the best platform.
But if you 'hate all web work,' how valid can your analysis be?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
But if you 'hate all web work,' how valid can your analysis be?
I would agree with his opinion on "I hate all Web Work" and had made it my personal choice to avoid all web work if at all possible. However when the time came for me to make an analysis guess what i reccomended based on the requirements... a web interface :) some people are capable of looking past their personal opinions and judge a book based on the content inside.
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Rohde wrote:
It'll all pretty much end up on the net - we're just waiting for a true coherent web development paradigm that can take it to the new level completely, and also for better bandwidth for the masses. But it's where it is gonna end up.
I disagree entirely. The problem is not bandwidth, it's latency - the time between beginning an action and getting a response. The bandwidth is already fine for most applications. The latency is too great, and it's showing no signs of decreasing. In fact there is a distinct lower limit on the latency you can expect, and it comes from the speed of light through materials. You genuinely cannot do any better than several milliseconds if you're communicating with a computer some distance from where you are. Any intermediate relays, such as routers, switches, gateways, or merely repeaters, will add additional latency as the device buffers the packet, works out where it's going, and forwards it. Compared to even accessing the local hard disk, the latency of network communication is glacial.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
Ok - great post. And I don't disagree entirely. But for a lot of the UI stuff the code will be running on the client (e.g. JavaScript on the browser), so there the latency is not a problem. It's true that there's latency when talking with a computer over a network, but the we just have to be smart about when and how to communicate with these computers.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand -
Rohde wrote:
It'll all pretty much end up on the net - we're just waiting for a true coherent web development paradigm that can take it to the new level completely, and also for better bandwidth for the masses. But it's where it is gonna end up.
I disagree entirely. The problem is not bandwidth, it's latency - the time between beginning an action and getting a response. The bandwidth is already fine for most applications. The latency is too great, and it's showing no signs of decreasing. In fact there is a distinct lower limit on the latency you can expect, and it comes from the speed of light through materials. You genuinely cannot do any better than several milliseconds if you're communicating with a computer some distance from where you are. Any intermediate relays, such as routers, switches, gateways, or merely repeaters, will add additional latency as the device buffers the packet, works out where it's going, and forwards it. Compared to even accessing the local hard disk, the latency of network communication is glacial.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
This is a big point if you plan on using an application in India hosted in the United States :) (not that managment would EVER think of doing that)
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Rohde wrote:
It'll all pretty much end up on the net - we're just waiting for a true coherent web development paradigm that can take it to the new level completely, and also for better bandwidth for the masses. But it's where it is gonna end up.
I disagree entirely. The problem is not bandwidth, it's latency - the time between beginning an action and getting a response. The bandwidth is already fine for most applications. The latency is too great, and it's showing no signs of decreasing. In fact there is a distinct lower limit on the latency you can expect, and it comes from the speed of light through materials. You genuinely cannot do any better than several milliseconds if you're communicating with a computer some distance from where you are. Any intermediate relays, such as routers, switches, gateways, or merely repeaters, will add additional latency as the device buffers the packet, works out where it's going, and forwards it. Compared to even accessing the local hard disk, the latency of network communication is glacial.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
Mike Dimmick wrote:
Compared to even accessing the local hard disk, the latency of network communication is glacial.
Especially if you're condemned to a Satellite based internet service by the absence of any other local broadband or dial up provider. The bandwidth is ok, but that 2s round trip is a killer.
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I've been developing windows applications for 10 years. I've noticed nearly all the local developer jobs are now "Web Developer". I'm starting to wonder if its time I gave up my c++ mfc/c# win forms stuff and got over to web development... Do people also see this trend? Are people on here in the same situation? Some places have referred to backend web developer. A backend web developer is basically a developer isn't it?
I suppose that's a WebService.
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Ok - great post. And I don't disagree entirely. But for a lot of the UI stuff the code will be running on the client (e.g. JavaScript on the browser), so there the latency is not a problem. It's true that there's latency when talking with a computer over a network, but the we just have to be smart about when and how to communicate with these computers.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn RandRohde wrote:
But for a lot of the UI stuff the code will be running on the client (e.g. JavaScript on the browser
In that case, you're not a web developer. You're a desktop/client-side developer, using an interpreted language with the source code delivered over HTTP.
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Oakman wrote:
But if you 'hate all web work,' how valid can your analysis be?
I would agree with his opinion on "I hate all Web Work" and had made it my personal choice to avoid all web work if at all possible. However when the time came for me to make an analysis guess what i reccomended based on the requirements... a web interface :) some people are capable of looking past their personal opinions and judge a book based on the content inside.
StevenWalsh wrote:
some people are capable of looking past their personal opinions and judge a book based on the content inside.
Absolutely, but folks likely to make objective decisions don't immediately announce that they 'hate all web work.' They might say they prefered another approach, or tended to think there are serious difficulties with web solutions, but they are unlikely to say 'hate.'
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Paul Watson wrote:
A lot of us get to do pretty damned cool web dev work.
Being 'forced' to do DotNetNuke module development (and probably skinning and templating too) just do not equate to cool with me... :sigh: I am pretty sure there are cool web work. Even I am thinking of making a little web framework in IronScheme (extending the crude CGI rather).
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)leppie wrote:
Being 'forced' to do DotNetNuke module development
Blech, life is too short for that crap.
leppie wrote:
I am pretty sure there are cool web work. Even I am thinking of making a little web framework in IronScheme (extending the crude CGI rather).
If you are thinking about that, look at the ASP.NET MVC stuff. It's the web framework they should have build 5 years ago, instead of trying to cram web pages into a desktop form application designer.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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Rohde wrote:
It'll all pretty much end up on the net - we're just waiting for a true coherent web development paradigm that can take it to the new level completely, and also for better bandwidth for the masses. But it's where it is gonna end up.
I disagree entirely. The problem is not bandwidth, it's latency - the time between beginning an action and getting a response. The bandwidth is already fine for most applications. The latency is too great, and it's showing no signs of decreasing. In fact there is a distinct lower limit on the latency you can expect, and it comes from the speed of light through materials. You genuinely cannot do any better than several milliseconds if you're communicating with a computer some distance from where you are. Any intermediate relays, such as routers, switches, gateways, or merely repeaters, will add additional latency as the device buffers the packet, works out where it's going, and forwards it. Compared to even accessing the local hard disk, the latency of network communication is glacial.
DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991
The US is in the dark ages compared to places like Korea when it comes to bandwidth. Bandwidth is and will continue to be a big issue here since the US is so spread out. I think I read a few days ago that 50% of users still use dial-up and have no desire to upgrade.
Todd Smith
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leppie wrote:
Being 'forced' to do DotNetNuke module development
Blech, life is too short for that crap.
leppie wrote:
I am pretty sure there are cool web work. Even I am thinking of making a little web framework in IronScheme (extending the crude CGI rather).
If you are thinking about that, look at the ASP.NET MVC stuff. It's the web framework they should have build 5 years ago, instead of trying to cram web pages into a desktop form application designer.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
Andy Brummer wrote:
If you are thinking about that, look at the ASP.NET MVC stuff. It's the web framework they should have build 5 years ago, instead of trying to cram web pages into a desktop form application designer.
Thats exactly what I am thinking about! No designers for me :) I am just trying to think how I will be doing it (MVC).
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
Andy Brummer wrote:
If you are thinking about that, look at the ASP.NET MVC stuff. It's the web framework they should have build 5 years ago, instead of trying to cram web pages into a desktop form application designer.
Thats exactly what I am thinking about! No designers for me :) I am just trying to think how I will be doing it (MVC).
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)Check out the stuff from Hanselman, I remember a few weeks back that they got IronRuby running on MVC. You might be able to look at that to see about getting the Scheme stuff running on it. Though, I think running a replace('(', '<') might be a little faster. :)
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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Rohde wrote:
But for a lot of the UI stuff the code will be running on the client (e.g. JavaScript on the browser
In that case, you're not a web developer. You're a desktop/client-side developer, using an interpreted language with the source code delivered over HTTP.
And if the JavaScript code calls a web service? What are you then? The point is that it doesn't matter. In the future a lot of the content will be delivered via the net and as a developer you should be able to write code works on both the back end and front end in this model.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, `Who is destroying the world?' You are."
-Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand -
JamesA_Dev wrote:
Do people also see this trend?
Only in the last ten years or so ;P
JamesA_Dev wrote:
Are people on here in the same situation?
I was working on a web product until early this year, and now I am on a desktop office app (well, a "connected" one, but all UI is Win32/WTL stuff)
Sure wish there was a way to vote a 10 :)
Rocky <>< Blog Post: Sites and Domains for sale! Tech Blog Post: Microsoft Live Writer Plug-ins! Photo Stuff Blog Post: CHDK Motion Detection and other stuff - Quick notes!
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Check out the stuff from Hanselman, I remember a few weeks back that they got IronRuby running on MVC. You might be able to look at that to see about getting the Scheme stuff running on it. Though, I think running a replace('(', '<') might be a little faster. :)
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
Andy Brummer wrote:
I remember a few weeks back that they got IronRuby running on MVC.
I dont think I will be able to use the MS MVC, Scheme is just too different, and I am still working on that kind of interoperability.
Andy Brummer wrote:
Though, I think running a replace('(', '<') might be a little faster.
I have a pretty neat XML emitter already :) Here is a taste (basically a list with a . means an attribute):
(display-html
`(html (xmlns . "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml")
(head (title ,title))
(body
(form (id . "form1") (method . "post")
(h1 ,title)
(p "rabble rabbles")
,(if (and (method-post?) (form "foo"))
'(input (type . "submit") (name . "bar") (value . "Now you can"))
'(input (type . "submit") (name . "bar") (value . "Can't click me") (disabled . #t)))
(br)
(input (type . "submit") (name . "foo") (value . "Click me!") )
(br)
(p "bar = " ,(form "bar"))
(p "<strong>hello</strong>")
(p "baz = " ,(form "baz"))
(select (name . "baz")
,@(map (lambda (x)
`(option ,x (selected . ,(eqv? (form "baz") x))))
'("good" "bad" "ugly") )
(onchange . "submit()"))
(p (a (href . ,(string-format "test.ss?id={0}" (+ 1 counter))) "Go back"))
(p (a (href . ,(string-format "test.ss?id={0}" (+ 100 counter))) "Go forward"))
))))xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008) -
The US is in the dark ages compared to places like Korea when it comes to bandwidth. Bandwidth is and will continue to be a big issue here since the US is so spread out. I think I read a few days ago that 50% of users still use dial-up and have no desire to upgrade.
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
still use dial-up and have no desire to upgrade
I'm one of them, believe it or not. :omg: It's not that I have no desire, it's more that I don't want to pay for it. For what little we use the Internet at home, sloooooow is fine. If the kids start to need it for homework or I become a telecommuter, we'll upgrade. Otherwise I'm happy with $9.95/month.
BDF A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. -- Moliere
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eddyvluggen wrote:
From a technological viewpoint, I'd say the future is mixed, parts being web-oriented and partially rich clients. Desktop-applications using webservices, web-applications launching ActiveX to achieve rich functionality and the likes.
I'm a web-developer and I gave you a 5 for that. I love it when desktop-apps. are web-aware and when websites work in tandem with your desktop, mobile and home fridge.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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I dont care what you call it, I dont wanna do it! I am not a web-developer, then why am I being used to make web front ends?
xacc.ide - now with TabsToSpaces support
IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 4a out now (29 May 2008)