Programming Language Flame Wars
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I was just paroosing the CP forums and articles, and a couple of the developers (particularily VB ones) get shot down for their choice of language: I am a C# developer myself, but I can't seem to fathom the reasons why people keep squabbling over programming languages. Firstly, you get the typical guy who says: "your language suckzzoorrzzz." Honestly he is showing himself up to be the real idiot because he is demonstrating that he [most probably] has experience only in one programming language. This means that if he has to get a job some day in a real company with real legacy systems he is going to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with his 1337 Foo# programming skillz. Then you get the guy who simply says "my language is better than yours/best there is," basing his argument on statistics and the amount of people who use the language etc. Just because a lot of people use (or understand) the language doesn't make it the bees knees. Take a web scripting language for example, I am sure thousands of people use any specific one (and do amazing things with it): but it sure isn't possible to write a IMAP server in one. Just because it's popular doesn't make it universally applicable. Then take a language like x86 assembler, definitely not that many developers, but they must get paid bucket loads and have sooo much more skill than the rest of us. The typical CP article message: "I need a version of this in [insert language here]." I really wonder how many copy'n'paste programmers are writing software that runs our lives today and it scares me. It seems as though the art and joy of programming has been lost to the ability to copy'n'paste (although a DirectShow interop library always helps ;) ). Apart from that, most of these guys are asking for the stuff in C#: there are a couple VB-to-C# converters out there, so they are also showing a lack of Google skills. Finally (although OT) you get the guys who say, "your GUI sucks." Honestly, I think the better programmers would be the ones who are useless at GUIs. If you want a fancy GUI find an article on a Office 2007-style ribbon and not on a complex network protocol. Infact, with the WPF trend, programmers need only make the bare essential GUIs and the designers are left to make them look pretty. I think developers who want to say any of the above should seriously consider learning a new language: and they should take the language used by the author for a start. I joined the Java IRC chat room a while back claiming that I wanted to write a Java
This behavior has been going on since the dawn of humanity in all aspects of life.
Todd Smith
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I think you're right on the money here.
Jonathan C Dickinson wrote:
If you want a fancy GUI find an article on a Office 2007-style ribbon
Careful. The development team for Windows 7 are the same ones that did the Office 2007 Ribbon :-D
Don't take any wooden nickels.
Dirk Higbee wrote:
The development team for Windows 7 are the same ones that did the Office 2007 Ribbon
Oh that's just fucking great. Office 2007 is effectively defeatured because you can no longer frigging find what you're looking for, and half the stupid panels don't work. Now you're telling me they're going to do this to the whole OS. Where's my towel. I need to throw it in.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I was just paroosing the CP forums and articles, and a couple of the developers (particularily VB ones) get shot down for their choice of language: I am a C# developer myself, but I can't seem to fathom the reasons why people keep squabbling over programming languages. Firstly, you get the typical guy who says: "your language suckzzoorrzzz." Honestly he is showing himself up to be the real idiot because he is demonstrating that he [most probably] has experience only in one programming language. This means that if he has to get a job some day in a real company with real legacy systems he is going to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with his 1337 Foo# programming skillz. Then you get the guy who simply says "my language is better than yours/best there is," basing his argument on statistics and the amount of people who use the language etc. Just because a lot of people use (or understand) the language doesn't make it the bees knees. Take a web scripting language for example, I am sure thousands of people use any specific one (and do amazing things with it): but it sure isn't possible to write a IMAP server in one. Just because it's popular doesn't make it universally applicable. Then take a language like x86 assembler, definitely not that many developers, but they must get paid bucket loads and have sooo much more skill than the rest of us. The typical CP article message: "I need a version of this in [insert language here]." I really wonder how many copy'n'paste programmers are writing software that runs our lives today and it scares me. It seems as though the art and joy of programming has been lost to the ability to copy'n'paste (although a DirectShow interop library always helps ;) ). Apart from that, most of these guys are asking for the stuff in C#: there are a couple VB-to-C# converters out there, so they are also showing a lack of Google skills. Finally (although OT) you get the guys who say, "your GUI sucks." Honestly, I think the better programmers would be the ones who are useless at GUIs. If you want a fancy GUI find an article on a Office 2007-style ribbon and not on a complex network protocol. Infact, with the WPF trend, programmers need only make the bare essential GUIs and the designers are left to make them look pretty. I think developers who want to say any of the above should seriously consider learning a new language: and they should take the language used by the author for a start. I joined the Java IRC chat room a while back claiming that I wanted to write a Java
The majority of programmers are male. The majority of them that bother getting into arguments about languages are young, *shockingly* inexperienced for having such strong opinions and terminally geeky, need I say anything more? :)
"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -Sam Levenson
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I was just paroosing the CP forums and articles, and a couple of the developers (particularily VB ones) get shot down for their choice of language: I am a C# developer myself, but I can't seem to fathom the reasons why people keep squabbling over programming languages. Firstly, you get the typical guy who says: "your language suckzzoorrzzz." Honestly he is showing himself up to be the real idiot because he is demonstrating that he [most probably] has experience only in one programming language. This means that if he has to get a job some day in a real company with real legacy systems he is going to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with his 1337 Foo# programming skillz. Then you get the guy who simply says "my language is better than yours/best there is," basing his argument on statistics and the amount of people who use the language etc. Just because a lot of people use (or understand) the language doesn't make it the bees knees. Take a web scripting language for example, I am sure thousands of people use any specific one (and do amazing things with it): but it sure isn't possible to write a IMAP server in one. Just because it's popular doesn't make it universally applicable. Then take a language like x86 assembler, definitely not that many developers, but they must get paid bucket loads and have sooo much more skill than the rest of us. The typical CP article message: "I need a version of this in [insert language here]." I really wonder how many copy'n'paste programmers are writing software that runs our lives today and it scares me. It seems as though the art and joy of programming has been lost to the ability to copy'n'paste (although a DirectShow interop library always helps ;) ). Apart from that, most of these guys are asking for the stuff in C#: there are a couple VB-to-C# converters out there, so they are also showing a lack of Google skills. Finally (although OT) you get the guys who say, "your GUI sucks." Honestly, I think the better programmers would be the ones who are useless at GUIs. If you want a fancy GUI find an article on a Office 2007-style ribbon and not on a complex network protocol. Infact, with the WPF trend, programmers need only make the bare essential GUIs and the designers are left to make them look pretty. I think developers who want to say any of the above should seriously consider learning a new language: and they should take the language used by the author for a start. I joined the Java IRC chat room a while back claiming that I wanted to write a Java
We who choose to denigrate VB (and it's purveyors of crap code) don't feel a compelling need to defend our actions, because those actions are righteous and good, and our selflessness serves all of mankind.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I was just paroosing the CP forums and articles, and a couple of the developers (particularily VB ones) get shot down for their choice of language: I am a C# developer myself, but I can't seem to fathom the reasons why people keep squabbling over programming languages. Firstly, you get the typical guy who says: "your language suckzzoorrzzz." Honestly he is showing himself up to be the real idiot because he is demonstrating that he [most probably] has experience only in one programming language. This means that if he has to get a job some day in a real company with real legacy systems he is going to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with his 1337 Foo# programming skillz. Then you get the guy who simply says "my language is better than yours/best there is," basing his argument on statistics and the amount of people who use the language etc. Just because a lot of people use (or understand) the language doesn't make it the bees knees. Take a web scripting language for example, I am sure thousands of people use any specific one (and do amazing things with it): but it sure isn't possible to write a IMAP server in one. Just because it's popular doesn't make it universally applicable. Then take a language like x86 assembler, definitely not that many developers, but they must get paid bucket loads and have sooo much more skill than the rest of us. The typical CP article message: "I need a version of this in [insert language here]." I really wonder how many copy'n'paste programmers are writing software that runs our lives today and it scares me. It seems as though the art and joy of programming has been lost to the ability to copy'n'paste (although a DirectShow interop library always helps ;) ). Apart from that, most of these guys are asking for the stuff in C#: there are a couple VB-to-C# converters out there, so they are also showing a lack of Google skills. Finally (although OT) you get the guys who say, "your GUI sucks." Honestly, I think the better programmers would be the ones who are useless at GUIs. If you want a fancy GUI find an article on a Office 2007-style ribbon and not on a complex network protocol. Infact, with the WPF trend, programmers need only make the bare essential GUIs and the designers are left to make them look pretty. I think developers who want to say any of the above should seriously consider learning a new language: and they should take the language used by the author for a start. I joined the Java IRC chat room a while back claiming that I wanted to write a Java
In practical terms, many language choices do suck. Ever try hiring an experienced python developer? Or try do debug a python program with a really complicated bug? How about dealing with a third party who wants to put an application on your embedded device, but it runs slow as mud because it's a VB app (not VB.NET mind you, VB.) Or the developer who insists on creating a library as a COM object instead of a standard DLL even though everyone only needs it as a DLL? My point is that allowing developers use any language and/or technology has serious business implications. This not only impacts hiring, but also affects maintainability. A second point is that primary language choice often tells you much about the capabilities of an engineer. So, for example, there may be VB developers who understand multi-threading and synchronization well, but I haven't met one yet.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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rastaVnuce wrote:
I don't like Pascal's syntax, too.
Eiffel has Pascal-like syntax but is less verbose. IMO it strikes a good balance between terseness and readability. Unfortunately, there's no motivation to learn it.
rastaVnuce wrote:
Even non-.Net developers should be able to read and [at least roughly] understand code in C, C++, C#, Java, Pascal, Basic, etc... It's the same thing.
I wouldn't go as far as that because outside .NET you're talking about different libraries as well as different language features. It's not just syntax.
Kevin
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Eiffel has Pascal-like syntax but is less verbose. IMO it strikes a good balance between terseness and readability
I found that with when I was experimenting with Python. There they went back to the basic fact that all (half decent) programmers indent their code so why not use the indentation to define the structure of the code?
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Unfortunately, there's no motivation to learn it.
I'm in the same boat as you, I just don't have a good project to use Python for. Although I have wrote a couple of download scripts etc in it.
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Eiffel has Pascal-like syntax but is less verbose. IMO it strikes a good balance between terseness and readability
I found that with when I was experimenting with Python. There they went back to the basic fact that all (half decent) programmers indent their code so why not use the indentation to define the structure of the code?
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Unfortunately, there's no motivation to learn it.
I'm in the same boat as you, I just don't have a good project to use Python for. Although I have wrote a couple of download scripts etc in it.
Yes, Python is nice. I dabbled in it briefly after being landed with a Perl maintenance task. I moaned to a colleague and he said take a look at Python... I think of Microsoft manage to come up with a few compelling projects using IronPython or IronRuby (and get them integrated into the VS IDE) then they may get some attention in the Microsoft world. Otherwise they'll sit there gathering dust.
Kevin
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Yes, Python is nice. I dabbled in it briefly after being landed with a Perl maintenance task. I moaned to a colleague and he said take a look at Python... I think of Microsoft manage to come up with a few compelling projects using IronPython or IronRuby (and get them integrated into the VS IDE) then they may get some attention in the Microsoft world. Otherwise they'll sit there gathering dust.
Kevin
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
few compelling projects using IronPython or IronRuby
That's the problem I have, I just don't have a "need" to use another language apart from C# or C so although I want to learn the languages and know them at a basic level I never do a substantial project in them to really hone my skills.
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
few compelling projects using IronPython or IronRuby
That's the problem I have, I just don't have a "need" to use another language apart from C# or C so although I want to learn the languages and know them at a basic level I never do a substantial project in them to really hone my skills.
One of the problems is that there's no payback. It's hard enough keeping up to date with the never-ending stream of technologies/frameworks coming out of Microsoft that employers very soon insist on your having commercial experience with. There isn't time to invest in that plus esoteric languages that you may never get to use in anger.
Kevin
