I give up... more source control...
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When you think about it, nobody likes to tell the person above them about problems. So, the CEO is being "protected" from bad news by everybody below him. He couldn't tell you if it was raining if he looked out the window.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
When you think about it, nobody likes to tell the person above them about problems. So, the CEO is being "protected" from bad news by everybody below him. He couldn't tell you if it was raining if he looked out the window.
One has to keep in mind that the suckups get closer to power by assuming responsibility for handling problems. No one in the suckup layer wants people below them reporting problems to the power, as this will threaten their position. The best way to solve this is for those in power to have their own intelligence system monitoring their domain, one that bypasses any layer of suckups.
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Todd Smith wrote:
Do you have a QA department or release manager?
Not for 10 years! he was laid off at the last lay off. I am the QA, mostly because this is my "baby" I started it all on my own in 1994 when no one thought it could be done, and especially not by some no-body kid without any edjumakation! I was just a hick kid from a hick town in NM, with a tech certificumacation from a hick school in hick-town oklahoma (Tulsa). :) I have pride in this work, so I am Scotty, and QA.
El Corazon wrote:
Todd Smith wrote: Do you have a QA department or release manager? Not for 10 years! he was laid off at the last lay off. I am the QA, mostly because this is my "baby" I started it all on my own in 1994 when no one thought it could be done, and especially not by some no-body kid without any edjumakation! I was just a hick kid from a hick town in NM, with a tech certificumacation from a hick school in hick-town oklahoma (Tulsa). I have pride in this work, so I am Scotty, and QA.
They have you by your pride. Been there...you have my sympathy, but I recommend you go find someone to work for that you can be proud of.
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
, or leave.
Seems a lot of people like to advocate this solution. Doesn't seem practical if you've devoted 12 years to a project and you just have to deal with some obstinate folk. Leaving is rarely the correct decision. I'd wager that you could find reasons to "just leave" from every job out there. Come on folks, get creative with your armchair philosophy.
I've heard more said about less.
shiftedbitmonkey wrote:
Gary Wheeler wrote: , or leave. Seems a lot of people like to advocate this solution. Doesn't seem practical if you've devoted 12 years to a project and you just have to deal with some obstinate folk. Leaving is rarely the correct decision. I'd wager that you could find reasons to "just leave" from every job out there. Come on folks, get creative with your armchair philosophy. I've heard more said about less.
NOT armchair philosophy...hard, cold advice from one who knows. However, there are steps that can be taken prior to that...but from the description of the behavior of this organization, "Scotty" has fossilized in his position, and this alone makes the "leave" advice good advice. If he leaves on good terms, my guess would be that he can come back on better terms - and I expect an invitation to return within six months, as the organization has fossilized around him, and will begin to collapse once his support is removed.
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El Corazon wrote:
Todd Smith wrote: Do you have a QA department or release manager? Not for 10 years! he was laid off at the last lay off. I am the QA, mostly because this is my "baby" I started it all on my own in 1994 when no one thought it could be done, and especially not by some no-body kid without any edjumakation! I was just a hick kid from a hick town in NM, with a tech certificumacation from a hick school in hick-town oklahoma (Tulsa). I have pride in this work, so I am Scotty, and QA.
They have you by your pride. Been there...you have my sympathy, but I recommend you go find someone to work for that you can be proud of.
oh I am. My own software company took it's first contract nov of 07. It is pulling about 60k a year with one customer, if that expands....
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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Well, command-line guy is easy, just don't let him know about any of the UI tools for SVN and make *him* write the hook script to transform the actual code structure into his perverse collection of nested directories and back again. Tell him he's "allowed" to do that if he handles the branching and merging, if he still refuses after being told he can have most of his cake, find a window on the top floor that looks a little shaky. Build-breaker needs to start buying lunch, and someone suggested a script to build-on-commit, this is quite important as it can then broadcast an e-mail with the name, extension, cube location, and favorite tele-tubby of the offending submitter. If it is still a problem after a couple weeks, make sure they haven't fixed that window too well. I don't know what you are using for code editing but the VSS guy sounds like a Visual Studio user. You can try AnkhSVN (I don't like dev evnvironment integration all /that/ much but it is nice for renaming files, that's the one thing that's clunky with Tortoise in a Studio project) with him, if his complaint is that it doesn't lock files by default or something... make sure nobody's thought to put a safety net under that window. The "I'll take my ball" crowd should start being treated like off-site subs or outsourcers- they can do whatever they want and hand over working objects + source at their deadlines. If they lose something they get to have a fun night finding/rewriting it and it damn well better still work. (it sounds like you're in a kind of "build master" role where you take the code and create the deliverable output... you should check with your management to see how *they* would react if you started demanding things be corrected when someone breaks the build rather than fixing them yourself as it sounds is happening now. If management would rather you do the rest of the team's job for them, start looking... but if you can get your boss to agree that people are wasting time like crazy because they won't listen to a little common sense... that's a BIG lever to have when you sit everyone down and formalize the source control/build procedures. It is an even bigger club to have sitting nearby when you have to enforce them...)
Thelly wrote:
I don't know what you are using for code editing but the VSS guy sounds like a Visual Studio user. You can try AnkhSVN (I don't like dev evnvironment integration all /that/ much but it is nice for renaming files, that's the one thing that's clunky with Tortoise in a Studio project) with him, if his complaint is that it doesn't lock files by default or something... make sure nobody's thought to put a safety net under that window.
You might also challenge this one (or yourself) to write the extensions to Visual Studio necessary to implement anything in VS that Visual Source Safe can do. Visual Studio 1.1 has a rich set of programmable interfaces, beginning with but by no means limited to its macro capability, and I'm sure the more advanced versions do, as well. If you're not going to leave, you need to get very creative about leading from the bottom. Scotty often got Kirk to do things for him and his engineering efforts, and LaForge did an even better job. hint....hint....
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shiftedbitmonkey wrote:
Gary Wheeler wrote: , or leave. Seems a lot of people like to advocate this solution. Doesn't seem practical if you've devoted 12 years to a project and you just have to deal with some obstinate folk. Leaving is rarely the correct decision. I'd wager that you could find reasons to "just leave" from every job out there. Come on folks, get creative with your armchair philosophy. I've heard more said about less.
NOT armchair philosophy...hard, cold advice from one who knows. However, there are steps that can be taken prior to that...but from the description of the behavior of this organization, "Scotty" has fossilized in his position, and this alone makes the "leave" advice good advice. If he leaves on good terms, my guess would be that he can come back on better terms - and I expect an invitation to return within six months, as the organization has fossilized around him, and will begin to collapse once his support is removed.
heh... easy to say when its not you that has to pay any penalties for this choice. For that reason I call it armchair advice. When you have to pay the price your decision might not be so cavalier. If you have a wife and kids to feed and don't have 6 months of living or more in savings, I don't consider it good advice to leave a 12 year position because of a couple of asshats. Asshats are everywhere and really these types of problems are systemic with regards to working with fellow humans. You won't get away from them by moving to another place. Only the names and faces change. The devil you know verses the devil you don't. Over time issues surface and do you keep leaving each place til you find the right working group? What if that group doesn't exist? Programmers are critical people. Its in our nature. We will always find something wrong with what's around us. Unavoidable. But like finding the perfect mate, you have to sometimes focus on what you can live with rather than what you wish you could live with. His current strategy does seem to be a viable one though; start up independence on the side and allow it to stabilize before leaving.
I've heard more said about less.
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We have one programmer who wants it kept a file system with directory structure that is nested almost as deep as his code, doesn't like branch/merge and prefers all tools to be command line. Another submits all the time and breaks the build at least once a week (and is on vacation after making one such fatal commit before leaving). Another who submits rarely complaining that svn doesn't act enough like VSS and when it does he will do it more. A few others do what ever they want because they don't share and don't team, and will not either. yet when there is a problem, I am supposed to be "Scotty" and get everything fixed. I don't want this trouble. If my company was only doing good enough to pay health insurance... gonna hide in my office for fifteen minutes before I shift to Scotty mode. I need a (tm)Trollslayer method for dealing with teams... I wonder if she'll contract out to teach the (tm)Trollslayer method.... *sigh*
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
Only one on-topic reply so far huh? Yeesh. Anyway, if you're managing these developers (and if you're not, speak with their direct manager), you need to let them know that source control is not an OPTION, it's a REQUIREMENT. Source control is 99% useless if it's not consistent, so choose an option (CVS, SVN, whatever works best for your organization) and stick with it. If your underlings don't like it, they know where the door is. Individual developers shouldn't get that level of flexibility when it directly affects productivity to such a huge level.
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Only one on-topic reply so far huh? Yeesh. Anyway, if you're managing these developers (and if you're not, speak with their direct manager), you need to let them know that source control is not an OPTION, it's a REQUIREMENT. Source control is 99% useless if it's not consistent, so choose an option (CVS, SVN, whatever works best for your organization) and stick with it. If your underlings don't like it, they know where the door is. Individual developers shouldn't get that level of flexibility when it directly affects productivity to such a huge level.
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oh I am. My own software company took it's first contract nov of 07. It is pulling about 60k a year with one customer, if that expands....
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
El Corazon wrote:
oh I am. My own software company took it's first contract nov of 07. It is pulling about 60k a year with one customer, if that expands....
LOL sorry, mistook who I was responding to, probably should've read the message more carefully.
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El Corazon wrote:
oh I am. My own software company took it's first contract nov of 07. It is pulling about 60k a year with one customer, if that expands....
LOL sorry, mistook who I was responding to, probably should've read the message more carefully.
no problem, my boss knows I am moonlighting at my own company, as he does and probaly 20 percent of the company staff. What no one knows is how much it is pulling in. trying for som SBIR work to pull that well over 100k regularly. doctor bills themselves would eat up that 60k if I made a full break, still I think everyone would expect I would be closer to 20k or less. It pays for my equipment, and lowers the cost of the house. My step son just decided he wants to make his first try for the olympics in 8 years so that will add some more expense. work doesn't need to worry too much, but if the business grows they will find my hours cut to minimum no matter what excuse. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
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heh... easy to say when its not you that has to pay any penalties for this choice. For that reason I call it armchair advice. When you have to pay the price your decision might not be so cavalier. If you have a wife and kids to feed and don't have 6 months of living or more in savings, I don't consider it good advice to leave a 12 year position because of a couple of asshats. Asshats are everywhere and really these types of problems are systemic with regards to working with fellow humans. You won't get away from them by moving to another place. Only the names and faces change. The devil you know verses the devil you don't. Over time issues surface and do you keep leaving each place til you find the right working group? What if that group doesn't exist? Programmers are critical people. Its in our nature. We will always find something wrong with what's around us. Unavoidable. But like finding the perfect mate, you have to sometimes focus on what you can live with rather than what you wish you could live with. His current strategy does seem to be a viable one though; start up independence on the side and allow it to stabilize before leaving.
I've heard more said about less.
shiftedbitmonkey wrote:
heh... easy to say when its not you that has to pay any penalties for this choice.
As I said, I learned from hard experience...I paid the price, and reaped the benefits. I didn't tell him to quit out of hand. As for being in the position for 12 years, that may simply mean he's been there ten years too long. And his description is quite clear: it's not a couple of badhats, it's an organization that supports bad-hat behavior as long as it has white-hats to clean it up. As for "it's the same everywhere"...it isn't. He may wind up being a much smaller fish in a bigger pond, but that might also give him room to grow. As for not having six months of savings to live on...what fool is advising him just to dump the job? What fool would assume that advising him to leave means advising him just to dump the job?? Oh...that would be you. Get a grip: my experience has been that my income only moves quickly upward when I change jobs (NOT quit them and hope, look for them while working until the right opportunity shows up) and THAT was GOOD for my family. Granted, this is easier in America with the high-tech base we have, but it's certainly not impossible anywhere else. As a result, I'm giving him good advice based on my hard experience, earned by putting one foot in front of the other and not by simply charging ahead without a clue as to how I'll make it to safety. In short, there is nothing "cavalier" about my advice to look for another job. End of this discussion.
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shiftedbitmonkey wrote:
heh... easy to say when its not you that has to pay any penalties for this choice.
As I said, I learned from hard experience...I paid the price, and reaped the benefits. I didn't tell him to quit out of hand. As for being in the position for 12 years, that may simply mean he's been there ten years too long. And his description is quite clear: it's not a couple of badhats, it's an organization that supports bad-hat behavior as long as it has white-hats to clean it up. As for "it's the same everywhere"...it isn't. He may wind up being a much smaller fish in a bigger pond, but that might also give him room to grow. As for not having six months of savings to live on...what fool is advising him just to dump the job? What fool would assume that advising him to leave means advising him just to dump the job?? Oh...that would be you. Get a grip: my experience has been that my income only moves quickly upward when I change jobs (NOT quit them and hope, look for them while working until the right opportunity shows up) and THAT was GOOD for my family. Granted, this is easier in America with the high-tech base we have, but it's certainly not impossible anywhere else. As a result, I'm giving him good advice based on my hard experience, earned by putting one foot in front of the other and not by simply charging ahead without a clue as to how I'll make it to safety. In short, there is nothing "cavalier" about my advice to look for another job. End of this discussion.
cpkilekofp wrote:
Oh...that would be you.
A bit condescending there.
cpkilekofp wrote:
. End of this discussion.
Hahahahaha.... :laugh: Enjoy yourself. I'm not that attached to my view to argue this in depth with you. Apparently you don't want to see my point. I'll accept that. I see your point, and I still stand by my original point. Leaving isn't always the best advice although people seem to throw it out there in these types of threads repeatedly. I just think its not a creative solution. To each his own. Do you like to argue? Looks like you need to get a grip. :jig: here have a :beer: on me.
I've heard more said about less.
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We have one programmer who wants it kept a file system with directory structure that is nested almost as deep as his code, doesn't like branch/merge and prefers all tools to be command line. Another submits all the time and breaks the build at least once a week (and is on vacation after making one such fatal commit before leaving). Another who submits rarely complaining that svn doesn't act enough like VSS and when it does he will do it more. A few others do what ever they want because they don't share and don't team, and will not either. yet when there is a problem, I am supposed to be "Scotty" and get everything fixed. I don't want this trouble. If my company was only doing good enough to pay health insurance... gonna hide in my office for fifteen minutes before I shift to Scotty mode. I need a (tm)Trollslayer method for dealing with teams... I wonder if she'll contract out to teach the (tm)Trollslayer method.... *sigh*
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) John Andrew Holmes "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
Procedures, Procedures, Procedures. You are engineering software, you know. They don't build bridges using your current process. Sounds like you have more of a personnel problem than a technical problem. Your team's individuals think much more highly of themselves than the team. If your team doesn't have an all for one, and one for all attitude, you need to have a serious sit down with your members, both as a group and individually. And if they have a problems playing ball, it's time to go. Try not to get frustrated (at least in front of people), and DO NOT point fingers. Nothing good happens with that. You need to figure out how to hold people accountable but without alienating them. It's a difficult task, but much easier than running around with buckets, putting fires out all the time. good luck.
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
I just looked at your profile, you are a CEO , What the hell are you doing here?
I'm actually an MD (Managing Director - not Doctor), but they don't have MD in the drop down.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
Being a CEO does not mean you are Project manager, development manager, programmer and DataBase Adminstrator !
No - but it does mean that you're isolated from the people who'll tell you this by a huge layer of suckups.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
> I'm actually an MD (Managing Director - not Doctor), but they don't have MD in the drop down. then fire his stupid ass seriously