Well now I understand

Reagan Conservative

Well, the gift of land for peace sure as shit didn't work! The Arabs (I refuse to call them 'Palestinians'), don't want peace --- they want Israel EXTERMINATED! You know, something like what HITLER wanted to do?? Is that OK?? If the Arabs don't want their women, children, and elderly to die, then get the hell away from Hamas! And let the Arabs deal with Hamas in bringing an end to the bloodshed. After all, who started killing who after the "land for peace"??

AF Pilot

oilFactotum

Shepman wrote:

challenges you to explain and defend your position.

Since that's not what he did, that's not how I chose to answer. I have never advocated for the destruction of Israel and he knows it.

Ilion

BoneSoft wrote:

While you can't say they invented it, they contributed a lot to it's beginnings.

Did nothing of the sort. Furthermore, if anything good did ever come out of Islamic "civilization," the probabilities are high that it wasn't actual Moslems who did it, but Christians, or Jews, or Zoroastrians, or Hindus, etc. And, of the meagre civilizational offerings of actual Moslems, the probabilities are high that they (or their fathers) were converts to the Submission DeathCult, and thus they were not fully mind-crippled in the manner of Moslems.

Ilion

EliottA wrote:

Get an education, you're extremely stupid.

As though a PC-infected non-entity like you could even recognize education.

oilFactotum

Mike Gaskey wrote:

but years lobbing rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods certainly does.

Well, no it doesn't.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

but I do think they'll grow a brain and see that supporting the Hamas' vermin is a losing strategy.

Why would you think that? After all By trying to weaken Fatah, Israel got Hamas in Gaza instead. Why do you think Hamas's replacement would be better? And why does this goal justify massive civilian casualties? So try this one on for size: Your country is occupied for 40 years. The occupier builds permanent settlements in the territory, They blockade you, your economy is destroyed, you are unable to work or get food or medicine. Your children are hungry, sick and uneducated. What would you do? It is not my argument that the valid grievances of the Palistinians justifies the terrorism of Hamas. But Israels valid grievences does not justify all acts of violence that they engage in.

Oakman

oilFactotum wrote:

I have never advocated for the destruction of Israel and he knows it.

Every time you claim that they shouldn't defend themselves that is exactly what you are doing. No country can permit a neighbor to fire rockets and mortars across their border indefinitely. Sooner or later they need to insure that the perpertrators are no longer capable of attacking them. That's way cities have police and nations have armies.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

BoneSoft

Oy... :doh: I forgot that you make up your own history too. Were you homeschooled by a sibling that was a year or two younger?

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

Oakman

Ilíon wrote:

As though a PC-infected non-entity like you could even recognize education.

So, since you never went to college, did you finish highschool?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

BoneSoft

It does help in recognizing one to have had one. :laugh:

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

Stan Shannon

Or, in other words, it is a commonly held moral precept. Its true because everyone says so. The fact that enough people believe and promote a given perspective is sufficient to make it truth.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

Knowledge of the world outside Indiana. You wouldn't understand

NOw, see, I ask a simple question and you have some sort of derogatory comment. Yet, somehow, I'm the guy who is always insulting people and refusing to learn and grow.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Lost User

Non-entity? An entity is something that has a distinct, separate existence[^] I'm pretty sure I meet that criteria. But then again, you probably would have learned that in college...what was that school you went to again? University of idiocy?

Ilion

BoneSoft wrote:

BS. Ever heard of a movie being based on a fictional book? Does that make it a conclusion?

What a fool you are.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

see, I ask a simple question

You asked, I answered.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I'm the guy who is always insulting people and refusing to learn and grow.

Yep. And you have insulted me far too often to start whining when I give you back a little of your stock-in-trade.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

oilFactotum

Oakman wrote:

Every time you claim that they shouldn't defend themselves

I have made no such claim. What I am saying is that I do not support this current military action. The Israeli leadership does not seem able to enuciate any strategic goals for this action. So, why do it? And why should I, as an American citizen, support it?

Oakman wrote:

Sooner or later they need to insure that the perpertrators are no longer capable of attacking them.

And this will not accomplish that goal. It will undoubtedly weaken the conventional capabilities of Hamas, but it will not make them incapable of attacking Israel.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

And you have insulted me far too often to start whining when I give you back a little of your stock-in-trade.

It is hardly insulting to point out historic errors and reminding someone of a certain level of loyalty due to their country.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

oilFactotum wrote:

The Israeli leadership does not seem able to enuciate any strategic goals for this action.

Their oft repeated strategic goal is to remove Hamas as a threat. They have used a number if different tactics to achieve that goal, but depending on the UN, Fatah, or Egypt has not worked. Instead, it gave Hamas a chance to arm itself with better weapons. Therefore, their more immediate goal is force Fatah, by whatever means necessary, to stop firing rockets into Israel. I have trouble believing you had never heard any of this before.

oilFactotum wrote:

And why should I, as an American citizen, support it?

Who asked you to? All the Israeli's wants from the US is to keep Hamas from achieving its goals in the UN.

oilFactotum wrote:

And this will not accomplish that goal.

Yep. And the surge will never work in Iraq,. either, right? And while we are at it, let's get rid of the police in this country because they are unable to eliminate crime.

oilFactotum wrote:

but it will not make them incapable of attacking Israel.

If they are weakened enough, Fatah will take care of the rest.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

reminding someone of a certain level of loyalty due to their country.

Really? Someone who says he can see no reason why I should love the USA presumes to 'remind' other people of the loyalty due their country? Someone who says he welcomes the tag of 'traitor' as he hopes and prays that the US falls apart in the next four years?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

oilFactotum

Oakman wrote:

Their oft repeated strategic goal is to remove Hamas as a threat.

Really? That's their strategic goal? I doubt it. Hamas is not the problem, it is merely a symptom. Palistinian radicalism will not disappear with Hamas. Israel weakened Fatah and they were replaced with Hamas in Gaza. That worked out real well, didn't it? :rolleyes:

Oakman wrote:

Therefore, their more immediate goal is force Fatah, by whatever means necessary, to stop firing rockets into Israel.

Correct me if I am wrong but you meant to say Hamas rather than Fatah? A little confused? Can't keep them straight in your head? On this we will have to agree to disagree about definitions - Stopping the rocket attacks is not a strategic goal.

Oakman wrote:

Who asked you to?

You did by demanding my mindless support of all Israeli actions lest I be labeled a jew-hater who wants to see them driven into the ocean.

Oakman wrote:

All the Israeli's wants from the US is to keep Hamas from achieving its goals in the UN.

Glad to know that they are a lot less demanding than many here in the sb.

Oakman wrote:

Yep. And the surge will never work in Iraq,. either, right?

It didn't. I'm suprised to see you've embraced the wingnut version of history. Perhaps you should refresh your memory and read the goals that Bush set for the surge(Hint: Politcal reconciliation).

Oakman wrote:

If they are weakened enough, Fatah will take care of the rest.

:laugh: :laugh: that is a good one!!

Oakman

oilFactotum wrote:

That's their strategic goal? I doubt it.

Take it up with them. You said they hadn't articulated their goal. They had.

oilFactotum wrote:

You did by demanding my mindless support of all Israeli actions lest I be labeled a jew-hater who wants to see them driven into the ocean.

Not at all. I think you have a mind. If I thought you were incapable of working your way towards the truth, I'd treat you like I do Ilion and Stan.

oilFactotum wrote:

Politcal reconciliation

Whether you have noticed or not, the Sunnis have become part of the Iraqi government and are very involved in the upcoming elections as well as becoming part of the Iraqi counter-insurgency.

oilFactotum wrote:

that is a good one!!

Weren't you whining because I wasn't treating your ideas with respect just a little while ago? Or do you maintain different standards for yourself?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface