MS Certification, I would like to hear your advice
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I've passed exam 70-536 .Net Framework Application development foundation. I am particularly interested in Windows forms development so I have two possible roads: .Net 2.0 (70-526) and .Net 3.5 (70-505). So why the dilemma? I have literature for both, but for 70-526 I have MS Press Self paced kit with voucher and I believe I'm ready for it. Exam 70-505 isn't available at the moment (IIRC it won't be until April), but it's "fresher". I am eager to finally get MCTS certificate, but should wait for few months and pass newer exam? :confused: I doubt they will be exceptionally different. Also, I am already waiting for literature for another exam (70-433 no official literature at the moment).
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I've passed exam 70-536 .Net Framework Application development foundation. I am particularly interested in Windows forms development so I have two possible roads: .Net 2.0 (70-526) and .Net 3.5 (70-505). So why the dilemma? I have literature for both, but for 70-526 I have MS Press Self paced kit with voucher and I believe I'm ready for it. Exam 70-505 isn't available at the moment (IIRC it won't be until April), but it's "fresher". I am eager to finally get MCTS certificate, but should wait for few months and pass newer exam? :confused: I doubt they will be exceptionally different. Also, I am already waiting for literature for another exam (70-433 no official literature at the moment).
I am sure that anyone that wants to see a potential employee with MS Certifications would want to see the latest and greatest only. In the States there is a growing sentiment that certifications are worthless.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego. -
I've passed exam 70-536 .Net Framework Application development foundation. I am particularly interested in Windows forms development so I have two possible roads: .Net 2.0 (70-526) and .Net 3.5 (70-505). So why the dilemma? I have literature for both, but for 70-526 I have MS Press Self paced kit with voucher and I believe I'm ready for it. Exam 70-505 isn't available at the moment (IIRC it won't be until April), but it's "fresher". I am eager to finally get MCTS certificate, but should wait for few months and pass newer exam? :confused: I doubt they will be exceptionally different. Also, I am already waiting for literature for another exam (70-433 no official literature at the moment).
Certification don't mean squat when comes to putting code into production.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I am sure that anyone that wants to see a potential employee with MS Certifications would want to see the latest and greatest only. In the States there is a growing sentiment that certifications are worthless.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
In the States there is a growing sentiment that certifications are worthless
Only among informed people - a very small percent.
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I've passed exam 70-536 .Net Framework Application development foundation. I am particularly interested in Windows forms development so I have two possible roads: .Net 2.0 (70-526) and .Net 3.5 (70-505). So why the dilemma? I have literature for both, but for 70-526 I have MS Press Self paced kit with voucher and I believe I'm ready for it. Exam 70-505 isn't available at the moment (IIRC it won't be until April), but it's "fresher". I am eager to finally get MCTS certificate, but should wait for few months and pass newer exam? :confused: I doubt they will be exceptionally different. Also, I am already waiting for literature for another exam (70-433 no official literature at the moment).
Make sure your interviewer is a PMP. If it's another programmer, you’re screwed.
MrPlankton
Mexican boy: Viene la tormenta! Sarah Connor: What did he just say? Gas Station Attendant: He said there's a storm coming Sarah Connor: [sighs] I know.
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I am sure that anyone that wants to see a potential employee with MS Certifications would want to see the latest and greatest only. In the States there is a growing sentiment that certifications are worthless.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.Well I'm not in the USA, can you explain why are they becoming worthless? Most medium and large companies get their employees certified (I admit for different reasons), am I wrong?
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Certification don't mean squat when comes to putting code into production.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I agree, but certificates should be proof of specific technical knowledge, correct? I count on combination of certificates and past projects as a proof for being able to write decent code.
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Well I'm not in the USA, can you explain why are they becoming worthless? Most medium and large companies get their employees certified (I admit for different reasons), am I wrong?
Certification does not imply skills. There are so many certification mills that produce people with certifications that do not have the experience necessary to do anything but pass the test. In fact, they now have companies that will allow you to take the tests by proxy, encouraging even more rampant cheating. Most medium and large companies I have been to do not certify their employees unless the employees specifically ask for the certification. However, the size of the bureaucracy will usually determine how important the cert is to a given company. The further abstracted the knowledgeable persons are from the decision makers the more likely having a certification will get you in the door ... however, it will not keep your there without back-up of actual skills. In fact, anecdotal evidence would suggest that you would need to have to work harder to prove yourself with a certification. Not only will you have to overcome the negative stereotypes but your coworkers will be less likely to overlook gaps in knowledge from a "certified" employee. One thing to consider, if your heart is set on being certified, is to not put your certification on the resume or cv. If a potential employer asks, you can say yes and produce the documentation. If they don't keep your mouth shut :p
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego. -
Well I'm not in the USA, can you explain why are they becoming worthless? Most medium and large companies get their employees certified (I admit for different reasons), am I wrong?
Oshtri Deka wrote:
Well I'm not in the USA, can you explain why are they becoming worthless?
At least one reason could be that the questions are prepared by people who cannot write legible English. The grammar is odd (sometimes broken) and most of the questions are ambiguous. Also, there's a lot of unwanted detail involved in some questions - it doesn't make sense to have a question span 2/3rds of a page when the same question could be asked in 2 sentences. And to top it all, some questions don't really have a right answer, so the answer choices don't really make sense. For a previous job there was a chance that I could have got certified - and initially I was pretty enthusiastic about it. But once I figured out that passing the certification meant learning by heart some seemingly disconnected stuff and becoming good at figuring out the intended meaning of broken grammar questions, I lost interest.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
I agree, but certificates should be proof of specific technical knowledge, correct? I count on combination of certificates and past projects as a proof for being able to write decent code.
No, they're proof that one of the following is true: 0) the person knows the material in general 1) the person knows the material on the test only 2) the person crammed for the test and forgot everything immediately afterwards 3) the person bought a cheat guide and only memorized the answer to the test questions without knowing any of the material at all 4) the person hired a cheating company to take the test for him and never even saw the material before only 1 of the 5 actually indicate a person you'd want to hire. Three of the 5 mean the person is a C Pound expert. :doh:
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Oshtri Deka wrote:
Well I'm not in the USA, can you explain why are they becoming worthless?
At least one reason could be that the questions are prepared by people who cannot write legible English. The grammar is odd (sometimes broken) and most of the questions are ambiguous. Also, there's a lot of unwanted detail involved in some questions - it doesn't make sense to have a question span 2/3rds of a page when the same question could be asked in 2 sentences. And to top it all, some questions don't really have a right answer, so the answer choices don't really make sense. For a previous job there was a chance that I could have got certified - and initially I was pretty enthusiastic about it. But once I figured out that passing the certification meant learning by heart some seemingly disconnected stuff and becoming good at figuring out the intended meaning of broken grammar questions, I lost interest.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkI guess I could just put on my resume, "Certifiable"
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego. -
I've passed exam 70-536 .Net Framework Application development foundation. I am particularly interested in Windows forms development so I have two possible roads: .Net 2.0 (70-526) and .Net 3.5 (70-505). So why the dilemma? I have literature for both, but for 70-526 I have MS Press Self paced kit with voucher and I believe I'm ready for it. Exam 70-505 isn't available at the moment (IIRC it won't be until April), but it's "fresher". I am eager to finally get MCTS certificate, but should wait for few months and pass newer exam? :confused: I doubt they will be exceptionally different. Also, I am already waiting for literature for another exam (70-433 no official literature at the moment).
Oshtri, While I personally agree with the general sentiment of other developers here, that certification doesn't prove the worth of the developer in the real world, developers are not typically the ones doing the hiring. In general, unless it's a small organization, companies either have their own internal recruiter or they employee an external service to perform the initial interviews. Most likely, these people haven't a clue about software development, so for them, seeing someone with Microsoft Certification would most likely get your foot in the door. I know most companies like to give written or white board tests, I like to hand candidates a laptop with Visual Studio and SQL Server on it, and say "Here you go, open Studio, and I'm going to tell you what you're going to write, and you write it." ... the good ones, the ones that know what they're doing, won't even blink, and most likely, will smile at the prospect of being able to show off their skills; everyone else ... well ... that's normally the end of the interview for them. D.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
I've passed exam 70-536 .Net Framework Application development foundation. I am particularly interested in Windows forms development so I have two possible roads: .Net 2.0 (70-526) and .Net 3.5 (70-505). So why the dilemma? I have literature for both, but for 70-526 I have MS Press Self paced kit with voucher and I believe I'm ready for it. Exam 70-505 isn't available at the moment (IIRC it won't be until April), but it's "fresher". I am eager to finally get MCTS certificate, but should wait for few months and pass newer exam? :confused: I doubt they will be exceptionally different. Also, I am already waiting for literature for another exam (70-433 no official literature at the moment).
I appreciate your advices on certification as a career move (write more if you remember something else), but also I would like to see more specific answers for my dilemma. Most of you have at some level negative (restrained) opinion on the whole certification story, can you direct me to different approach (other than work hard - learn :)). I don't have CS or similar degree (and here it's not possible to earn one if you are full time employed :( ), and only other formal proof of my knowledge are college courses with similar material and certificates. Is there any other solid certificate that matters?
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I appreciate your advices on certification as a career move (write more if you remember something else), but also I would like to see more specific answers for my dilemma. Most of you have at some level negative (restrained) opinion on the whole certification story, can you direct me to different approach (other than work hard - learn :)). I don't have CS or similar degree (and here it's not possible to earn one if you are full time employed :( ), and only other formal proof of my knowledge are college courses with similar material and certificates. Is there any other solid certificate that matters?
Experience stands out more than education. I know within a minute if someone is full of it or not. Unfortunately, what is required of an employee may be country specific so you may have to ask a local users group.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego. -
Well I'm not in the USA, can you explain why are they becoming worthless? Most medium and large companies get their employees certified (I admit for different reasons), am I wrong?
Oshtri Deka wrote:
Most medium and large companies get their employees certified (I admit for different reasons), am I wrong?
Consulting companies get their employees certified because that is what some clients of them look for. Imagine you are a non technical person and are looking to hire someone to do some programming work. Having no knowledge, Given all things the same for two different consultants, I will obviously lean towards someone who is certified. Consulting companies can't miss those opportunities. Another reason to get employees certified is to get some partner points so that the company can get some Partner points so that the company can become Microsoft Partner. (this means a huge savings for the company in Software licenses).
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I've passed exam 70-536 .Net Framework Application development foundation. I am particularly interested in Windows forms development so I have two possible roads: .Net 2.0 (70-526) and .Net 3.5 (70-505). So why the dilemma? I have literature for both, but for 70-526 I have MS Press Self paced kit with voucher and I believe I'm ready for it. Exam 70-505 isn't available at the moment (IIRC it won't be until April), but it's "fresher". I am eager to finally get MCTS certificate, but should wait for few months and pass newer exam? :confused: I doubt they will be exceptionally different. Also, I am already waiting for literature for another exam (70-433 no official literature at the moment).
I just read all the responses and agree 100%, but I suggest you to take the certification, for the following reasons: - in my country (Brazil) the certification don't help too much too, but in some cases (it was said above) some companies may take it into account. In this economic crisis scenario I think it's a good idea to underestimate anything :) - I still have made some exams, and they are good to make me study, without it I think I wouldn't study anymore, but it may be good to me due to my personal characteristcs, sometimes I need a specific target to do something. I hope it helps!
GuimaSun www.nexsun.com.br NEXSUN TechZone
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I just read all the responses and agree 100%, but I suggest you to take the certification, for the following reasons: - in my country (Brazil) the certification don't help too much too, but in some cases (it was said above) some companies may take it into account. In this economic crisis scenario I think it's a good idea to underestimate anything :) - I still have made some exams, and they are good to make me study, without it I think I wouldn't study anymore, but it may be good to me due to my personal characteristcs, sometimes I need a specific target to do something. I hope it helps!
GuimaSun www.nexsun.com.br NEXSUN TechZone
GuimaSun wrote:
- in my country (Brazil) the certification don't help too much too, but in some cases (it was said above) some companies may take it into account. In this economic crisis scenario I think it's a good idea to underestimate anything
I'm not sure I would want to work for a company where certificates matter. Google attempts to hire the best of the best. Find out what they think of certification.
Todd Smith
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GuimaSun wrote:
- in my country (Brazil) the certification don't help too much too, but in some cases (it was said above) some companies may take it into account. In this economic crisis scenario I think it's a good idea to underestimate anything
I'm not sure I would want to work for a company where certificates matter. Google attempts to hire the best of the best. Find out what they think of certification.
Todd Smith
But if we are honest, majority of us aren't "Google" materiel for one reason or another, including me. :sigh: Bleeh I hoped that some professional certification will help me. Well it will, but not as much as I hoped, and I'm not all that convinced that all certificates suck. Same could be said for colleges. We have "big name" institutions and we have diploma mills with majority stuck somewhere in the middle, correct?
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But if we are honest, majority of us aren't "Google" materiel for one reason or another, including me. :sigh: Bleeh I hoped that some professional certification will help me. Well it will, but not as much as I hoped, and I'm not all that convinced that all certificates suck. Same could be said for colleges. We have "big name" institutions and we have diploma mills with majority stuck somewhere in the middle, correct?
My point is that a good (aka passionate) programmer [^] doesn't need certifications or a college education to succeed. And neither of those are a guarantee that the person you're interviewing is good.
Todd Smith
