WPF--Why? No, Really!
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Yup; both are very cool (databinding and customization). It's just that there's no sensible bridge to WPF from WinForms, no way to ease the transition. Most frustrating of all, I'm already bald, so I can't even tear my hair out, as any self-respecting bit-banger would do...!
ddoutel wrote:
Most frustrating of all, I'm already bald
You are in luck! I received an Email only this morning which guarantees hair growth, I could forward it to you if you like. :-D Oh, and it also had a product to increase my size, but I'm a bit too large already.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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That is a shame. I was wishing that there would be some basic conversion tools to get a basic windows forms app converted over to using WPF. That would be a huge help I think, until it came to controls outside the ones available in WPF, but that could still be handled to some degree. The problem I think IS that there is no real great knowledge transfer between windows forms and WPF. They are two very different approaches to the same task (building a UI) and I am starting to get the feeling that unless you completely stop using WinForms and move to using WPF for all the new stuff you do that you may have continued problems trying to get your head around the new paradigm. I for one have fallen in love with data binding and the new template layout features. I fought far too long with owner-drawn controls just to get some cool features into things like list boxes and list views. The new template stuff is great.
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Yup; both are very cool (databinding and customization). It's just that there's no sensible bridge to WPF from WinForms, no way to ease the transition. Most frustrating of all, I'm already bald, so I can't even tear my hair out, as any self-respecting bit-banger would do...!
Yeah, I hear you. Fortunately, I have a full head of hair remaining, so I figure once WPF is deprecated by SUX (Simple User eXperience framework) for Midori Windows 2016, I'll need to invest in some Rogaine. :)
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon Judah Himango
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Like most of you, I spend my days (and many nights) in the trenches, and have for nearly 30 years. I came up through assembly to C through C++ to C#, and a bunch of other stuff as side trips along the way. Having come from a place where there were NO IDE's to ease my pain, I'm supremely grateful for the ability to drag controls onto a form, smoosh 'em around, set some properties and be up and running with a skeleton to flesh out and deliver. I do NOT work with or have access to a graphic artist, nor do I wish to. Anyway, for the last several months on and off, I have attempted to come to grips with WPF, and I've finally arrived at the conclusion that it's just not worth the effort! In general, it's more work and more frustration for MUCH less functionality! Come on, MS! If I want to tinker endlessly with markup, I'll write in HTML, and likely have something that works in much less time and effort. To obtain the same level of useability I get with Windows Forms apps using WPF takes unbelieveable amounts of time and effort. Latest and greatest, my achin' posterior! Am I wrong? What am I missing here, folks?? Too busy for the MS merry-go-round, Duane Doutel
You're right, and wrong. WPF is too complex, too verbose, too buggy, and too incomplete. But, the apps you build with WPF would be a hell of a lot of work to try to get working without it. It's worth the hassle, I just hope they fix it with time.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
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I don't think anyone knows....
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
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ddoutel wrote:
Am I wrong?
No.
ddoutel wrote:
What am I missing here, folks??
You're missing the need to be a real programmer. MS is trying to dumb it down so that anyone that's ever written HTML in a web page can feel empowered to write an enterprise-level application. Feel free to join the rest of us that hate WPF.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
MS is trying to dumb it down so that anyone that's ever written HTML in a web page can feel empowered to write an enterprise-level application.
That a framework can be accused simultaneously of being too complex and too dumbed down shows that it truly is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't kind of situation for MS.
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon Judah Himango
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Shog9 wrote:
Then what the hell is The Soapbox for?
It's for compliments and/or positive reviews about Microsoft products which inevitably lead to flamewars and riots. It's like telling an oppressed people that their ruler really is a nice person if you get to know them :D
Todd Smith
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
MS is trying to dumb it down so that anyone that's ever written HTML in a web page can feel empowered to write an enterprise-level application.
That a framework can be accused simultaneously of being too complex and too dumbed down shows that it truly is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't kind of situation for MS.
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon Judah Himango
I think your conclusion is spelled out too nice...
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ddoutel wrote:
Most frustrating of all, I'm already bald
You are in luck! I received an Email only this morning which guarantees hair growth, I could forward it to you if you like. :-D Oh, and it also had a product to increase my size, but I'm a bit too large already.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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You're right, and wrong. WPF is too complex, too verbose, too buggy, and too incomplete. But, the apps you build with WPF would be a hell of a lot of work to try to get working without it. It's worth the hassle, I just hope they fix it with time.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
Christian Graus wrote:
I just hope they fix it with time.
I think they will. Given they're using it all over the place in the next version of VS, I suspect they'll hit many of the pain points we've experienced and, unless they're masochists, fix them. :)
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon Judah Himango
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Like most of you, I spend my days (and many nights) in the trenches, and have for nearly 30 years. I came up through assembly to C through C++ to C#, and a bunch of other stuff as side trips along the way. Having come from a place where there were NO IDE's to ease my pain, I'm supremely grateful for the ability to drag controls onto a form, smoosh 'em around, set some properties and be up and running with a skeleton to flesh out and deliver. I do NOT work with or have access to a graphic artist, nor do I wish to. Anyway, for the last several months on and off, I have attempted to come to grips with WPF, and I've finally arrived at the conclusion that it's just not worth the effort! In general, it's more work and more frustration for MUCH less functionality! Come on, MS! If I want to tinker endlessly with markup, I'll write in HTML, and likely have something that works in much less time and effort. To obtain the same level of useability I get with Windows Forms apps using WPF takes unbelieveable amounts of time and effort. Latest and greatest, my achin' posterior! Am I wrong? What am I missing here, folks?? Too busy for the MS merry-go-round, Duane Doutel
Just gotta realize that there is no direct path from WinForms to WPF. Two completely different ways of thinking... Drove me crazy for a while too, but I'm slowly adapting. I'll tell ya, maintaining a large WinForms application and a medium-sized WPF application at the same time really taxes the mental processors... Talk about context-switching... I really only have two gripes with WPF... 1) The WYSIWYG part of the designer just plain sucks. I only use it to position buttons on panels by coordinates. The XAML section is a lot nicer, though it would be nice if it was a little better with local namespaces. 2) DependencyProperty syntax is clumsy and ugly. There has to be a better way to do this. Seriously, if you have more than a few in one class, you might as well just make a partial class file ("MyClass.DependencyProps.cs") just to get them out of the way... Makes the code horrible to read.
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ddoutel wrote:
What am I missing here, folks?
I suspect that XAML, unlike HTML, was designed to be machine-generated (good luck finding a machine to generate it just the way you want it... Anyone doing forms entirely in Expression yet?). WPF however, can be used without XAML, and stands a reasonably good chance of being The Way Forward when it comes to graphics APIs on Windows. At least until the Windows team puts their foot down and completely refuses to use it. BTW: the correct place for rants is The Soapbox 2.0
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SoapBox 2.0 is for posting things you'd really rather not be read...
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Yeah, I hear you. Fortunately, I have a full head of hair remaining, so I figure once WPF is deprecated by SUX (Simple User eXperience framework) for Midori Windows 2016, I'll need to invest in some Rogaine. :)
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon Judah Himango
That's *really* not funny! :)
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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Christian Graus wrote:
I just hope they fix it with time.
I think they will. Given they're using it all over the place in the next version of VS, I suspect they'll hit many of the pain points we've experienced and, unless they're masochists, fix them. :)
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Given they're using it all over the place in the next version of VS
You do realize that all they are using it for is the text editor (and related intellisense pop-ups) right? Unless that's recently changed...
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
MS is trying to dumb it down so that anyone that's ever written HTML in a web page can feel empowered to write an enterprise-level application.
That a framework can be accused simultaneously of being too complex and too dumbed down shows that it truly is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't kind of situation for MS.
Religiously blogging on the intarwebs since the early 21st century: Kineti L'Tziyon Judah Himango
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Shog9 wrote:
Then what the hell is The Soapbox for?
It's for compliments and/or positive reviews about Microsoft products which inevitably lead to flamewars and riots. It's like telling an oppressed people that their ruler really is a nice person if you get to know them :D
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
It's like telling an oppressed people that their ruler really is a nice person if you get to know them
:laugh:
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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Judah Himango wrote:
Given they're using it all over the place in the next version of VS
You do realize that all they are using it for is the text editor (and related intellisense pop-ups) right? Unless that's recently changed...
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
Also the "Start Page". Of course it has been totally useless for me.
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Just gotta realize that there is no direct path from WinForms to WPF. Two completely different ways of thinking... Drove me crazy for a while too, but I'm slowly adapting. I'll tell ya, maintaining a large WinForms application and a medium-sized WPF application at the same time really taxes the mental processors... Talk about context-switching... I really only have two gripes with WPF... 1) The WYSIWYG part of the designer just plain sucks. I only use it to position buttons on panels by coordinates. The XAML section is a lot nicer, though it would be nice if it was a little better with local namespaces. 2) DependencyProperty syntax is clumsy and ugly. There has to be a better way to do this. Seriously, if you have more than a few in one class, you might as well just make a partial class file ("MyClass.DependencyProps.cs") just to get them out of the way... Makes the code horrible to read.
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Like most of you, I spend my days (and many nights) in the trenches, and have for nearly 30 years. I came up through assembly to C through C++ to C#, and a bunch of other stuff as side trips along the way. Having come from a place where there were NO IDE's to ease my pain, I'm supremely grateful for the ability to drag controls onto a form, smoosh 'em around, set some properties and be up and running with a skeleton to flesh out and deliver. I do NOT work with or have access to a graphic artist, nor do I wish to. Anyway, for the last several months on and off, I have attempted to come to grips with WPF, and I've finally arrived at the conclusion that it's just not worth the effort! In general, it's more work and more frustration for MUCH less functionality! Come on, MS! If I want to tinker endlessly with markup, I'll write in HTML, and likely have something that works in much less time and effort. To obtain the same level of useability I get with Windows Forms apps using WPF takes unbelieveable amounts of time and effort. Latest and greatest, my achin' posterior! Am I wrong? What am I missing here, folks?? Too busy for the MS merry-go-round, Duane Doutel
Perhaps I'm a little bit biased, being a member of a group called the WPF Disciples, but I love using WPF. Seriously, once I got my head around the concepts, developing non-trivial LOB apps actually became a lot easier because of WPF and it's phenomonal support for data binding. If you stop thinking of WPF in WinForms terms, and approach it from ASP.NET terms, it actually starts to make a lot of sense *shameless plug for my article[^] on this very issue*.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.