.NET Development Experiences on a Macbook Pro?
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Now that Steve & Co. have given me a slight discount on buying a MBP (any discount helps!), I was wondering if any of you have done prolonged Visual Studio work on a Macbook Pro. If so, can you give your impressions of the experience as well as the Windows development stack (Boot Camp, VMWare Fusion, Parallels, other)? Or, do you use Mono and some other IDE? I'd appreciate any feedback before laying down the 27 bills.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
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Now that Steve & Co. have given me a slight discount on buying a MBP (any discount helps!), I was wondering if any of you have done prolonged Visual Studio work on a Macbook Pro. If so, can you give your impressions of the experience as well as the Windows development stack (Boot Camp, VMWare Fusion, Parallels, other)? Or, do you use Mono and some other IDE? I'd appreciate any feedback before laying down the 27 bills.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
I develop entirely on a Mac Pro or Mac Book Pro, depending on if I am travelling. Here's the big one - the latest version of OSX (10.5.7) does not work with ATI cards and VMWare for 3D. So, if you do any WPF, etc, beware. Apart from that, I've overall had great success with using VMWare Fusion to do PC work on both Macs. Since this debacle, on my desktop, I have set up a bootcamp XP drive, and I am working on that right now. It's a little sad to not have access to Safari, etc, but it works fine. One thing - if you open your bootcamp drive in VMWare, it destroys the drive somehow. It works fine, but I can no longer see the drive in True Image, and my partitioning software sees it, but tells me it's in an invalid format to repartition. Also, I dunno how you'll go with boot camp on a Macbook, b/c I found that installing XP does not work, unless the Boot Camp partition takes up the entire drive. YMMV, but the Mac store basically couldn't make it work and I spent a day googling to sort that out, and that was the solution. Go to a single partition, and it worked first go. I have 3 HDD in my Mac Pro, obviously a notebook does not give you that option.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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I develop entirely on a Mac Pro or Mac Book Pro, depending on if I am travelling. Here's the big one - the latest version of OSX (10.5.7) does not work with ATI cards and VMWare for 3D. So, if you do any WPF, etc, beware. Apart from that, I've overall had great success with using VMWare Fusion to do PC work on both Macs. Since this debacle, on my desktop, I have set up a bootcamp XP drive, and I am working on that right now. It's a little sad to not have access to Safari, etc, but it works fine. One thing - if you open your bootcamp drive in VMWare, it destroys the drive somehow. It works fine, but I can no longer see the drive in True Image, and my partitioning software sees it, but tells me it's in an invalid format to repartition. Also, I dunno how you'll go with boot camp on a Macbook, b/c I found that installing XP does not work, unless the Boot Camp partition takes up the entire drive. YMMV, but the Mac store basically couldn't make it work and I spent a day googling to sort that out, and that was the solution. Go to a single partition, and it worked first go. I have 3 HDD in my Mac Pro, obviously a notebook does not give you that option.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian, Thank you, very much, for that in-depth look into .NET development on a Mac. That's a real shame about the lack of 3D rendering in Fusion; I had eagerly anticipated that transparent inclusion of Windows development on a OS X desktop. Sincerely, Curtis.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
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Christian, Thank you, very much, for that in-depth look into .NET development on a Mac. That's a real shame about the lack of 3D rendering in Fusion; I had eagerly anticipated that transparent inclusion of Windows development on a OS X desktop. Sincerely, Curtis.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
It used to work ( although it's certainly sluggish, and not suitable for final testing, for example ), but the latest version broke it. They are working towards a resolution. LMK if you have any other questions, I've been doing this for 8 months now, so I am likely to have some ideas. Overall, I'd say it's definitely worth it, I do love OSX, and just being experienced in two operating systems, having access to both, I get 1 voted every time I say anything here, but how is having more options possibly a bad thing ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Christian, Thank you, very much, for that in-depth look into .NET development on a Mac. That's a real shame about the lack of 3D rendering in Fusion; I had eagerly anticipated that transparent inclusion of Windows development on a OS X desktop. Sincerely, Curtis.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
Note that the 10.5.7 update affects ATI cards - MacBook Pros have Nvidia graphics....I know, I've got one :-) As for the development experience - it's not a lot different in Fusion than in native Windows, in my experience, so VS2008's quite sluggish at times, acceptable at others. I'm comparing my HP workstation at work (2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM, WinXP) with my MBP (2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM, Windows 7 running under Fusion with an allocation of 1GB RAM and a single processor core). Fusion will not give you Aero in Vista or Windows 7, no matter what graphcs you have - there's no DirectX 10 support, which is required for Aero. However, the WPF I've done (not much, has to be said - I'm more of a native programmer) has been fine. I would have said max out the RAM - but the price of an 8GB kit (as you could now use) is eye-watering - 4GB is a good starting point if you're going to use Fusion and OS X together (I often swap between OS X and Fusion - I run Fusion full-screen on one of my Spaces[^] - it's just a key-chord away!). Also - get yourself a 7200RPM drive! That makes a pretty big difference. The keyboard can be a slight pain at times - but that's mainly because Fusion makes Option==Windows Alt and Command==Windows key - but the Mac keys are physically laid out the opposite way to the Windows ones, so muscle memory can be an issue. However, as most of the common Mac shortcuts (Command-O, Command-C, Command-V, COmmand-X, Command-S) are mapped to their Windows equivalents (replace Command by Ctrl), the disconnect between Mac and Fusion isn't too bad. I personally don't use the 'home drive mirroring' feature that Fusion uses - I treat the VM as a separate entity, connected to the Mac by a 'network' share. Unlike Christian, I've had no real issues with Fusion - my networking's been fine, the machine's not corrupted at all etc etc. The other advice I'd give is 'don't live in Windows' - try using OS X - I much prefer using it than Windows personally. There is a disconnect at first - it works differently than Windows in many respects. Anyway - if you do make the jump, good luck! And if you do jump and you have any issues - I'm always willing to help :-)
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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It used to work ( although it's certainly sluggish, and not suitable for final testing, for example ), but the latest version broke it. They are working towards a resolution. LMK if you have any other questions, I've been doing this for 8 months now, so I am likely to have some ideas. Overall, I'd say it's definitely worth it, I do love OSX, and just being experienced in two operating systems, having access to both, I get 1 voted every time I say anything here, but how is having more options possibly a bad thing ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian, Thanks for the follow-up. I have decided to purchase an MBP and, should my experiences spawn more questions, I will avail you of your experience! Many thanks. Curtis.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
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Note that the 10.5.7 update affects ATI cards - MacBook Pros have Nvidia graphics....I know, I've got one :-) As for the development experience - it's not a lot different in Fusion than in native Windows, in my experience, so VS2008's quite sluggish at times, acceptable at others. I'm comparing my HP workstation at work (2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM, WinXP) with my MBP (2.4GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM, Windows 7 running under Fusion with an allocation of 1GB RAM and a single processor core). Fusion will not give you Aero in Vista or Windows 7, no matter what graphcs you have - there's no DirectX 10 support, which is required for Aero. However, the WPF I've done (not much, has to be said - I'm more of a native programmer) has been fine. I would have said max out the RAM - but the price of an 8GB kit (as you could now use) is eye-watering - 4GB is a good starting point if you're going to use Fusion and OS X together (I often swap between OS X and Fusion - I run Fusion full-screen on one of my Spaces[^] - it's just a key-chord away!). Also - get yourself a 7200RPM drive! That makes a pretty big difference. The keyboard can be a slight pain at times - but that's mainly because Fusion makes Option==Windows Alt and Command==Windows key - but the Mac keys are physically laid out the opposite way to the Windows ones, so muscle memory can be an issue. However, as most of the common Mac shortcuts (Command-O, Command-C, Command-V, COmmand-X, Command-S) are mapped to their Windows equivalents (replace Command by Ctrl), the disconnect between Mac and Fusion isn't too bad. I personally don't use the 'home drive mirroring' feature that Fusion uses - I treat the VM as a separate entity, connected to the Mac by a 'network' share. Unlike Christian, I've had no real issues with Fusion - my networking's been fine, the machine's not corrupted at all etc etc. The other advice I'd give is 'don't live in Windows' - try using OS X - I much prefer using it than Windows personally. There is a disconnect at first - it works differently than Windows in many respects. Anyway - if you do make the jump, good luck! And if you do jump and you have any issues - I'm always willing to help :-)
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
Stuart, Thank you for that great post. I truly appreciate your insights. I've decided to get 4Gb in my MBP with the hopes of finding a cheaper 8Gb upgrade. (I have heard rumors that they exist if you look *really* hard.) I've also factored in the 7200RPM drive because I will *never* buy another laptop with a 5400RPM drive in it. I really plan on only doing .NET development on my own projects of which one is an ObjC compiler that targets the CLI. Once I get that done, I should be able to do all of my .NET development in XCode! WOOT! I'm done with the preprocessor, most of the C Standard Library, and can compile classes. Next up: protocols and remoting! And, of course, why use Windows when I can look at the Mac UI? Should I run into any problems or need some advice, I'll make sure to ask you. Many thanks. Curtis.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
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Stuart, Thank you for that great post. I truly appreciate your insights. I've decided to get 4Gb in my MBP with the hopes of finding a cheaper 8Gb upgrade. (I have heard rumors that they exist if you look *really* hard.) I've also factored in the 7200RPM drive because I will *never* buy another laptop with a 5400RPM drive in it. I really plan on only doing .NET development on my own projects of which one is an ObjC compiler that targets the CLI. Once I get that done, I should be able to do all of my .NET development in XCode! WOOT! I'm done with the preprocessor, most of the C Standard Library, and can compile classes. Next up: protocols and remoting! And, of course, why use Windows when I can look at the Mac UI? Should I run into any problems or need some advice, I'll make sure to ask you. Many thanks. Curtis.
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
Curtis Schlak. wrote:
I really plan on only doing .NET development on my own projects of which one is an ObjC compiler that targets the CLI. Once I get that done, I should be able to do all of my .NET development in XCode! WOOT! I'm done with the preprocessor, most of the C Standard Library, and can compile classes. Next up: protocols and remoting!
As an intermediate step, Cocotron[^] might be worth checking out...
Curtis Schlak. wrote:
I've decided to get 4Gb in my MBP with the hopes of finding a cheaper 8Gb upgrade.
Good luck :-) Although if you leave it six months or so....
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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Curtis Schlak. wrote:
I really plan on only doing .NET development on my own projects of which one is an ObjC compiler that targets the CLI. Once I get that done, I should be able to do all of my .NET development in XCode! WOOT! I'm done with the preprocessor, most of the C Standard Library, and can compile classes. Next up: protocols and remoting!
As an intermediate step, Cocotron[^] might be worth checking out...
Curtis Schlak. wrote:
I've decided to get 4Gb in my MBP with the hopes of finding a cheaper 8Gb upgrade.
Good luck :-) Although if you leave it six months or so....
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
I've actually played with Cocotron and find it a really cool app. However, I can't develop it on a non-Windows machine which, when I'm at *work*, that's all I got. Plus, writing compilers is fun. Your last comment piques my curiosity. Do you think that if I wait six months or so that I will be able to get a MBP with 8Gb for less than the $1000 upgrade?
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
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I've actually played with Cocotron and find it a really cool app. However, I can't develop it on a non-Windows machine which, when I'm at *work*, that's all I got. Plus, writing compilers is fun. Your last comment piques my curiosity. Do you think that if I wait six months or so that I will be able to get a MBP with 8Gb for less than the $1000 upgrade?
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty
No - I reckon the third party alternatives will be cheaper! Upgrading RAM or hard-drive in a modern MacBook Pro is as easy as anything. The hard drive upgrade process, especially, is simple - take off the battery cover....and undo the screws holding in the hard-drive. Certainly easier than my old iBook, where I effectively had to completely disassemble the laptop :-)
Curtis Schlak. wrote:
I've actually played with Cocotron and find it a really cool app. However, I can't develop it on a non-Windows machine which, when I'm at *work*, that's all I got.
Umm - I thought Cocotron only worked on OS X[^]? It effectively adds a 'Windows' target to XCode.
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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No - I reckon the third party alternatives will be cheaper! Upgrading RAM or hard-drive in a modern MacBook Pro is as easy as anything. The hard drive upgrade process, especially, is simple - take off the battery cover....and undo the screws holding in the hard-drive. Certainly easier than my old iBook, where I effectively had to completely disassemble the laptop :-)
Curtis Schlak. wrote:
I've actually played with Cocotron and find it a really cool app. However, I can't develop it on a non-Windows machine which, when I'm at *work*, that's all I got.
Umm - I thought Cocotron only worked on OS X[^]? It effectively adds a 'Windows' target to XCode.
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
Yes, unfortunately, Cocotron only compiles on OS X. However, I borrowed a friend's older MBP for a weekend to get a feel for the system. He already had the Cocotron stack on there. Fun. Fun. Fun. Same friend bought a Western Digital 1Tb drive for $100 and installed it into his MBP. It worked great until that drive went sour. Then, the replacement went sour. Third time's a charm, right? :-D
"we must lose precision to make significant statements about complex systems." -deKorvin on uncertainty