Overtime Compensation
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How does everyone typically get compensated for overtime? Pay, time off, a thanks, more overtime...?
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
A thanks and more overtime
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No abuse intended as well but people with your mentality are exactly why corporate life is hell. And, as someone who employes extremely efficient and self sufficient programmers I would never hire you. The reasons are: 1) You obviously are not a balanced individual - you try and make up for your lack of any semblance of a meaningful life by attempting to force people to work additional hours without compensation. Why? Because you never had the balls to tell someone 'no'. 2) You are undermining your co-workers moral. You think that because you experience 'pain' due to your inability to meet your deadlines then everybody else should be miserable. 3) You over-think and over estimate your importance to the company. Every intelligent company that runs into a crunch time realizes that their good employees need to be treated well and compensated for their time. You obviously have never worked for a quality employer and have no clue how important it is to keep your core team working effectively.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
:thumbsup: too! :-D
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station.... _________________________________________________________ My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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I charge straight time. Realistically, I get a lot accomplished in a week and it is only true emergencies that cause me to work longer hours. Of course I am self-employed. If I were an employee of a company I would work whatever hours were initially agreed when I was hired and no more without compensation. Unpaid overtime is slavery.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Unpaid overtime is slavery
So true! And you do not even get to publish your free work on codeproject!
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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By expecting that it'll become regular operating procedure. :( That is, if you're lucky enough to have a manager that doesn't expect 70-80 hours a week to begin with (and yes, I was told in no uncertain terms at a job I had about 20 years ago that I was expected to put in 75 hours a week, salaried.) Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
Marc Clifton wrote:
to put in 75 hours a week
This is so 80's. I guess this was a time when they had to overcompensate for the 70's ;)!
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
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How does everyone typically get compensated for overtime? Pay, time off, a thanks, more overtime...?
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
By slacking off later.
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I think people have been pretty hard on you here. I think all your points are valid. Your only mistake is that you were a little hard on Gary who is a regular. :)
I think he's making a hell of a lot of assumptions. 1. He doesn't know Gary. 2. He doesn't know Gary's company or history at said company. 3. He has no idea what Gary's success rate (projects finished) compared to his peers working overtime. The dude sounds fresh out of school and totally unprepared for life in the real world where snap-judgments are anything but cut and dried. I'd fire his @$$ for the amount of disruption his self-fulfilling attitude would bring in to any environment. The world has enough experts I'm just looking for someone who doesn't need extra money from me to finish a project on-time. Now that's called a team player. Morons!
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I think people have been pretty hard on you here. I think all your points are valid. Your only mistake is that you were a little hard on Gary who is a regular. :)
Eh... The mistake would be that he didn't really have to be "hard" on Gary at all: putting Gary in a hypothetical scenario and making assumptions as to his work ethic and attitude based on his response to a specific question wasn't at all necessary, if Snowman58's intention was to, say, emphasize the value of teamwork. This sort of response - "If i was your boss..." - is strangely frequent on CP, and i've never quite figured out why. Maybe because i've never been someone else's boss, it's hard for me to appreciate the temptation to look at everyone as a potential underling such work inspires... :-\
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3) You are demonstrating that you are not interested in the success of the company; therefore the company owes no loyalty to you. Loyalty from the company? Does that even exist anymore?
dighn wrote:
Loyalty from the company? Does that even exist anymore?
No.
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
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You know what? I've been working for the same company for 19 years. I have survived more economic turns of the wheel than I can count.
Snowman58 wrote:
You are obviously not a team player
Wrong. In my department, I have the unofficial position of Departmental Sh!t-Job Boy. As the DSJB, I administer our department server, our source control system, our automated build process, and a host of other activities that keep our development group operating efficiently. Most of this is voluntary, and I consistently receive appreciative remarks on my appraisals for stepping up and doing all the crap nobody else wants to. In case you're wondering, this is on top of my regular responsibilities as one of the three senior developers in a group of 12.
Snowman58 wrote:
You are undermining the moral of the rest of the team by holding yourself above the "pain" of getting the task done on schedule
Not hardly. It's fairly rare that we, as a group, have to put in overtime. I've done it occasionally, when others have done so, even when I was only tangentially involved in the crisis at hand. The biggest reason we have to put in overtime is that we are overcommitted by engineering management. Our group of 12 supports 5 products, some of which have 2 or 3 active branches, along with any number of special projects. Our running joke is that we always have to figure out which of our half-dozen number-one top priorities we are supposed to be working on.
Snowman58 wrote:
You are demonstrating that you are not interested in the success of the company
Bullshit. My contribution to the success of the company is doing the best job I know how to do, in the most efficient manner possible. Overtime burns people out and increases the error rate. It's a losing proposition.
Snowman58 wrote:
Every aggressive company has crunch times when it expects its salaried employees to put in additional effort
Some companies make it a policy for it to always be crunch time. I've worked for a couple of those in the past. A company will take advantage of people who don't say no to overtime.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold WithGary R. Wheeler wrote:
Some companies make it a policy for it to always be crunch time.
That is what prompted this thread.
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
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No abuse intended, but if you worked for me, you would be high on the layoff list during a downturn. The reasons are: 1) You are obviously not a team player - you may have gotten your assignment done on time, but you could be helping others with their assignments. 2) You are undermining the moral of the rest of the team by holding yourself above the "pain" of getting the task done on schedule. 3) You are demonstrating that you are not interested in the success of the company; therefore the company owes no loyalty to you. Every aggressive company has crunch times when it expects its salaried employees to put in additional effort. As long as it is not an ongoing practice, it is the price you pay for not having to punch a time clock and a higher salary than a shop worker.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
modified on Sunday, August 2, 2009 11:48 PM
Lets be honest here. The additional hours added in overtime are more than offset by the lack of productivity caused by the destroyed moral. Does any one even argue that statement? So what is to gain by forcing overtime?
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
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Shelby Robetson wrote:
How does everyone typically get compensated for overtime? Pay, time off, a thanks, more overtime...?
Generally none of the above. Although technically I am never asked to work overtime, however I do get in trouble if the job is not finished on schedule. It's usually my fault that I don't always take this into account when I am asked how long something is going to take. The problem with a fudge factor is if I make it longer than some time schedule dictates the project can and will get simplified in some way that looks on the surface to reduce the work however in reality it may or may not reduce the time it takes to finish.
John
This is an interesting point. I don't mind working overtime if it is the result of me making an estimate and I miss it. My irritation comes in when i make an estimate, it doesnt fit with in an arbitrary deadline, so my estimate gets "adjusted" then my boss is unhappy when the adjusted estimate is not hit.
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
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I don't get compensated for any kind of overtime. But then again, I enjoy what I do and that is my only motivation to overtime. I don't care about time as a whole as long as I enjoy it and enjoyment is my reward. In general, I think highly motivated teams think beyond the issue of straight time and overtime. They enjoy what they do. But I do think, companies should give few things like a gift certificate to a restaurant or a store. Nothing too fancy and nothing too little. (This is of course in addition to the raises/bonuses).
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
But then again, I enjoy what I do and that is my only motivation to overtime. I don't care about time as a whole as long as I enjoy it and enjoyment is my reward.
Well, the fact that you enjoy the work and willfully work overtime doesn't change the fact that the company benefits from your work, and I'd expect the company to compensate you appropriately. I've come to realize that people take the enthusiasm and passion for granted :(
Regards Senthil _____________________________ My Home Page |My Blog | My Articles | My Flickr | WinMacro
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How does everyone typically get compensated for overtime? Pay, time off, a thanks, more overtime...?
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume from nine to eleven.
_____________________________ Will work for ... BRAINS!!! BRAINS!!!!
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No abuse intended, but if you worked for me, you would be high on the layoff list during a downturn. The reasons are: 1) You are obviously not a team player - you may have gotten your assignment done on time, but you could be helping others with their assignments. 2) You are undermining the moral of the rest of the team by holding yourself above the "pain" of getting the task done on schedule. 3) You are demonstrating that you are not interested in the success of the company; therefore the company owes no loyalty to you. Every aggressive company has crunch times when it expects its salaried employees to put in additional effort. As long as it is not an ongoing practice, it is the price you pay for not having to punch a time clock and a higher salary than a shop worker.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
modified on Sunday, August 2, 2009 11:48 PM
Snowman58 wrote:
No abuse intended, but if you worked for me, you would be high on the layoff list during a downturn.
Is there a guarantee that I work overtime almost all days, and I will *NEVER* be on the layoff list? Oh OK. That depends on the severity of the downturn? :rolleyes:
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
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No abuse intended, but if you worked for me, you would be high on the layoff list during a downturn. The reasons are: 1) You are obviously not a team player - you may have gotten your assignment done on time, but you could be helping others with their assignments. 2) You are undermining the moral of the rest of the team by holding yourself above the "pain" of getting the task done on schedule. 3) You are demonstrating that you are not interested in the success of the company; therefore the company owes no loyalty to you. Every aggressive company has crunch times when it expects its salaried employees to put in additional effort. As long as it is not an ongoing practice, it is the price you pay for not having to punch a time clock and a higher salary than a shop worker.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
modified on Sunday, August 2, 2009 11:48 PM
Snowman58 wrote:
- You are demonstrating that you are not interested in the success of the company; therefore the company owes no loyalty to you.
Hmm, this seems to have drawn lots of negative comments. I've been through plenty of layoffs. Usually the first ones out the door are the lucky ones because they are the first ones to hit the jobs that will last through the downturn. They are also usually the only ones to have a chance at any compensation packages. When the second round of layoffs comes the management doesn't feel nearly as guilty and more money has been used up. People left behind get MORE overtime. The work being done by the people who left still has to be done and guess who gets to do it? Since I became a consultant/contractor, I've survived far more layoffs than the employees. Turns out that even though my loyalty is bought by dollars instead of a (shudder) relationship, the company's loyalty gets stronger the more they pay me. Ronin, and loving it.
_____________________________ Will work for ... BRAINS!!! BRAINS!!!!
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How does everyone typically get compensated for overtime? Pay, time off, a thanks, more overtime...?
Trollslayer wrote:
Meetings - where minutes are taken and hours are lost.
I am a contractor. I get paid 1.5 rate for every hour I go over the agreed number of hours for a basic rate. Our project was (and is so far behind) when I got there, overtime is expected :) At a minimum I do at least 12.5% overtime for the last 7 months.
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 beta 4 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) -
By slacking off later.
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Eh... The mistake would be that he didn't really have to be "hard" on Gary at all: putting Gary in a hypothetical scenario and making assumptions as to his work ethic and attitude based on his response to a specific question wasn't at all necessary, if Snowman58's intention was to, say, emphasize the value of teamwork. This sort of response - "If i was your boss..." - is strangely frequent on CP, and i've never quite figured out why. Maybe because i've never been someone else's boss, it's hard for me to appreciate the temptation to look at everyone as a potential underling such work inspires... :-\
Shog9 wrote:
Maybe because i've never been someone else's boss
Same here. I nominally have a couple of minions at the moment, but it's more like I'm technical lead for the stuff they're working on.
Shog9 wrote:
the temptation to look at everyone as a potential underling
Cue the quote from Ghostbusters: "Are you a god?" "Well... no." "Then DIE!"
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
3) You are demonstrating that you are not interested in the success of the company; therefore the company owes no loyalty to you. Loyalty from the company? Does that even exist anymore?
dighn wrote:
Loyalty from the company? Does that even exist anymore?
It reminds me of comic I saw ages ago, before the internet. "I work for money, if you want loyalty, get a dog."
xacc.ide
IronScheme - 1.0 beta 4 - out now!
((λ (x) `(,x ',x)) '(λ (x) `(,x ',x))) -
Did you miss the part where he stated he completed his assignments within the schedule? It's been my experience, without exception, that companies that "expect" employees to do overtime are both poorly managed and abusive.
A few years ago, I interviewed with a place where the interviewer said "We expect our employees to put in at least 50 hours per week". I responded that I was not some butt-munching ass-kissing plebe fresh out of college willing to take just any job that came along, and he was sorely mistaken if he thought a 50-year-old programmer with almost 30 years of experience in the business was going to agree to working conditions like that. While he was sitting there sputtering and turning a little pale (because I had stood up to continue my rant, and maybe because I was yelling), I left and took a higher paying job elsewhere. Two days later, these bozos called me for a 2nd interview. Amazing...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
