Can a society work democratically ?
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Democracy is a very ambiguous term. If you use one definition, many countries execute it well. If you use another definition, nobody does it (thankfully). Are you talking about rule by majority without constitutional protection of rights? Tim Smith "Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution." Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
I'm realizing now my formulation was ambiguous. When I wrote "society", I meant "company". But your question is very insteresting, and I agree with it, Democracy is not only the rule of the Majority. The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
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We generally consider than politically democraty is the worst system except all others, but what about the economic world ? I've never seen yet a society work democratically. On the contrary, it's more generally based on the "Führerprinzip"[^]. Am I a dreamer or is it possible to change that ? The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
In a way it is possible, but you have to redefine what democracy is. Is free market a democracy? Companies on the market need leaders to survive and succeed. No committee has ever effectively lead a company. It can only come from extraordinary individual. But yet, we vote for the best company (and implicitly leadership) by buying their products. Hence, each successful company is from the people (employees), by the people (who buy products) and from the people (who use products). Tomaz Tomaz Stih, B.Sc.SE
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We generally consider than politically democraty is the worst system except all others, but what about the economic world ? I've never seen yet a society work democratically. On the contrary, it's more generally based on the "Führerprinzip"[^]. Am I a dreamer or is it possible to change that ? The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
Following your reply to Tim below above, I think you mean can a company work successfully in a democratic framework. One problem with that thought is that, unlike a society, employees don't have equal interest in the company. So giving them equal saying in company decisions doesn't seem sound. By this, I'm talking about sole-proprietorships or partnerships mainly. Corporations, however, do employ some democratic principles through periodic board meetings to discuss overall direction, etc. BW {insert witty/thought-provoking saying here}
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Christian Graus wrote: You're a dreamer You may say it, but I'm not the only one ;P The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
I hope some day you'll join us. :)
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We generally consider than politically democraty is the worst system except all others, but what about the economic world ? I've never seen yet a society work democratically. On the contrary, it's more generally based on the "Führerprinzip"[^]. Am I a dreamer or is it possible to change that ? The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
Capitalism privides the purest form of democracy that we can hope for. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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We generally consider than politically democraty is the worst system except all others, but what about the economic world ? I've never seen yet a society work democratically. On the contrary, it's more generally based on the "Führerprinzip"[^]. Am I a dreamer or is it possible to change that ? The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
Democracy, basic rights and free markets are the basis for western civilization It's the misuse of, or inability to implement properly that effect whether democracy succeeds or not Most nations in the world are trying to move toward these premises, not get away from them you take away the religious dictatorships, right of accession (king an queen silliness), and the feudal warlord systems that plague allot of smaller nations And democracy has had success Most of the people in China under 35 would give anything for democracy In Russia it would have had a chance if it wasn't widespread corruption Absolute power corrupts absolutely, Egos will see that this is always true Your case-in-point of the turd-Reight(yes I spelled it correctly) The destabilization of Europe The nations that fell under the Communist block, countries being forced into that system, having to kill people who tried to leave! The Jews forming the nation of Israel, because of the holocaust, and destabilizing that area On democracy in business, there are many examples of this working, as long as its based on team work and not office politics, or egos Case in point---Harley Davidson, co. went international (board, etc) co. went to hell Employee buy out, everybody has a say--success!!! Just a couple of cents worth Paul There are no revolutions, only power changing hands
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Capitalism privides the purest form of democracy that we can hope for. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Funny, I'm not surprised of your answer, Reverend ;) From my point of view, capitalism may also provide the purest form of fascism that we can fear for. The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
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I hope some day you'll join us. :)
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Karl wrote: We generally consider than politically democraty is the worst system except all others How can we tell, we've never seen it (real democracy) in action. but what about the economic world ? How can one draw a line between the "world" and the "economic world" (except that telling the latter is currently run by plain greed and is therefore a non-sustainable "lifeform")? Am I a dreamer or is it possible to change that ? Probably not without a revolution... (note: I'm not suggesting any such activities, I'm just telling you how bad I believe the system is -- that I think there is no way to change it to even try real democracy within the frames of the current system).
How can one draw a line between the "world" and the "economic world" (except that telling the latter is currently run by plain greed and is therefore a non-sustainable "lifeform")? The economic world occupies a space between need and greed. Case in point: do you work because you are greedy, or because you actually have legitimate needs (like food and shelter) to take care of? ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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Funny, I'm not surprised of your answer, Reverend ;) From my point of view, capitalism may also provide the purest form of fascism that we can fear for. The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
Well, not being a Marxist, I generally am not inclined to associate fasicsm with capitalism. ;) I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Well, not being a Marxist, I generally am not inclined to associate fasicsm with capitalism. ;) I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Being not marxist either ( ;P) , I base my thought on History. I look at the role played by big industries in the take of power by Adolf and Benito, or the role played by ITT in the establishment of Pinochet dictatorship in 73 (another 09/11[^]). The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
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You're a dreamer ;P Sorry Karl, but it's just not possible. Have you ever served on a committee of just a handful of people? Even that has trouble surviving democratically, different people interpretting opinions in different ways. I can't imagine a society based on this. Paul
Paul Riley wrote: I can't imagine a society based on this. I think it would be fun to elect managers and boss. They may gain their function for one year, and after that, re-election. They would perhaps be more human :rolleyes: The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
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Paul Riley wrote: I can't imagine a society based on this. I think it would be fun to elect managers and boss. They may gain their function for one year, and after that, re-election. They would perhaps be more human :rolleyes: The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
Sure, it'd be great fun, but I doubt it would be good for business. I'm damn sure that I'd vote for the person I could manipulate the most. Add to that the fact that as soon as you elected a nice guy, the strong manager would leave for a company that would respect his ability to manager because I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be too happy about the pay cut, among other things. All-in-all, very nice idea... for the employee... impractical and bad for business I'm afraid. Paul
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Paul Riley wrote: I can't imagine a society based on this. I think it would be fun to elect managers and boss. They may gain their function for one year, and after that, re-election. They would perhaps be more human :rolleyes: The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
That just might be one of the best ideas I've ever heard.
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Being not marxist either ( ;P) , I base my thought on History. I look at the role played by big industries in the take of power by Adolf and Benito, or the role played by ITT in the establishment of Pinochet dictatorship in 73 (another 09/11[^]). The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
I agree with you, It's amazing how now, it is not now recognized that "the 3rd Reich was probably the most capitalist regime" in modern times. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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We generally consider than politically democraty is the worst system except all others, but what about the economic world ? I've never seen yet a society work democratically. On the contrary, it's more generally based on the "Führerprinzip"[^]. Am I a dreamer or is it possible to change that ? The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
Karl wrote: We generally consider than politically democraty is the worst system except all others, I cannot see why a system better than democracy cannot be invented. Everyone seems defeatist in believing that Democracy is the peak of systems. :confused: Karl wrote: but what about the economic world ? I think the economic world works in 3 different modes, 1. Short term profit, 2. Medium term profit, 3. Long term profit. Nothing apart from this matters. The communisim that we have seen in the world never got organized sufficiently to work, as too many paradoxes were left in the systems. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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And the world will be as one ? :-D The one who isn't misanthropist when 40 years old never loved human kind Qui n'est pas misanthrope à 40 ans n'a jamais aimé les hommes Nicolas De Chamfort (1740-1793)
Imagine! :cool: