Suggested resources for co-op students moving from Java to VB
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My first co-op student is wrapping up his placement this week and he made a comment that surprised me. At school he's been working almost exclusively I guess in Java and when he came here he was assigned to work on a VB.Net application. I gave him some time and told him to familiarize himself with the project but I didn't think it would be a difficult move to go from Java to VB - after all, an If statement is still an If statement, right? But today we sat down and had a little chat and he told me that he had felt overwhelmed by the experience, so now I'm wondering, if I get another student for whom the programming language is unfamiliar what can I do to ease the transition for him/her?
WickedTribe72 wrote:
for whom the programming language is unfamiliar
Aren't you in control of that? :confused: I remember my co-op job... I had to use VAX BASIC because that's all the boss knew.
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Have to second that, The core programing was java at my school, but most of us fled to other languages in other classes, as well as having to go through courses such as programing language concepts which was nothing but learning types of languages so that you could pick up the god awful amount of languages and projects they threw at you during the course. If someone comes out of school only knowing one language that school has some serious issues with their curriculum.
If someone comes out of school only knowing one language that school has some serious issues with their curriculum. Agreed. I started taking programming classes in the mid 80s at a community college, AA degree called "Computers for Small Business." The "intro to" class used Algorithm -- a pseudo-code based on Pascal -- to teach the concepts. Actual languages were started in the second semester with Pascal. I also learned C, COBOL, RPG and data entry (you can tell this was in the 80s, right?) in addition to accounting and general ed. I can't imagine a computer student finishing the second year -- YEAR -- and having exerience with only one programming language.
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As someone who started CO-OP after his third semester of college, I can attest to the sensation of being overwhelmed. I don't think your problem lies entirely in the kwowledge gap but rather where most college students are at that point. I was going through all kinds of emotions initially as a CO-OP. -You're thrust into a position expected to perform (at what level you're unsure of), so you keep wondering what's expected of you. You want to learn and shine, but are unsure if you're 'good enough'. -I was confortable with C/C++, but even that wasn't good enough for the sort of development in C++ I was thrust into. I was just not comfortable with the intricacies of threads/mutexes at that point in college. -I was still unsure of whether or not I even would enjoy the field I was committing the rest of my life to. A lot of it really boils down to the personality of the student and where they are in their careers. By my second CO-OP experience, I was much more confident in myself and my abilities. When I was thrust into something new, I felt more confident I would succeed. To answer your question directly, I think the first step would be to understand where each candidate is at before they come to the job. In the cases where its a knowledge gap, I would definitely set expectations up front. I would give them a general overview of the application and how it works. A quick walkthrough of the code would be useful (and while you're at it coding standards, if time permits). Provide them with some links to good tutorials and some time to figure it out. You'll want to touch base with them more frequently at first. Once they get rolling though, you can be more hands off. But really, it all hinges on how they respond to the situation. I think its important to remember they are just students. They're standing at a cross roads of their lives, unsure of which direction to take. I hope that helps.
Thanks, that does help. As this is the first student I've had it's been a learning experience for everyone. One of the things that I will definitely take away from this experience is the need to touch bases more frequently and set clear expectations. I did give him some resources that I had found useful and time with the application, but perhaps I should have spent more time giving him an overview of the application and walking him through the portion that he was expected to work on.
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My first co-op student is wrapping up his placement this week and he made a comment that surprised me. At school he's been working almost exclusively I guess in Java and when he came here he was assigned to work on a VB.Net application. I gave him some time and told him to familiarize himself with the project but I didn't think it would be a difficult move to go from Java to VB - after all, an If statement is still an If statement, right? But today we sat down and had a little chat and he told me that he had felt overwhelmed by the experience, so now I'm wondering, if I get another student for whom the programming language is unfamiliar what can I do to ease the transition for him/her?
Maybe try J# if that's still around. Still the transition to C# from Java should be easier than moving to VB. I find VB 2002 and later (the .NET versions) pretty much identical to C# though I'm from a background that includes both VB and C++. At uni most of our programming was java, though there was a also one module that was in fortran, one in perl, a few involving the horrendous scripting language in lotus notes. There was a tiny bit of C++ though most of what they taught was plain wrong. At college, everything was turbo pascal and there was no programming in school. I used classic VB, C and C++ at home though.
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WickedTribe72 wrote:
for whom the programming language is unfamiliar
Aren't you in control of that? :confused: I remember my co-op job... I had to use VAX BASIC because that's all the boss knew.
the programming language? No, the application was written before I arrived here.
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I should clarify that he is still in school. In his second year. He's in a co-op program which means that they alternate semesters between being in the classroom and being on a work placement.
Yea, I went through the same thing. But they stuck the 'learning how to learn languages' bit at the beginning of my curriculum and blew through it fairly easily. Didn't know squat for SQL, .net or the VB6 bits that I wound up doing within the first few weeks. It just meant I needed to do some research and snag some documentation to get what I needed to know, not terribly overwhelming aside from the few times we needed to do something planned for weeks in under a day.
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the programming language? No, the application was written before I arrived here.
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the programming language? No, the application was written before I arrived here.
No, I mean if there was at least one candidate who knew at least a little VB, choose that one. Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java. Ideally your company's relationship with the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads.
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No, I mean if there was at least one candidate who knew at least a little VB, choose that one. Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java. Ideally your company's relationship with the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads.
Well, now you're just opening up a big can of worms! LOL. I'll just say that I was not in charge of the selection of the student.
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I think an appointment with a psychiatrist is the first stop they should make. VB is just wrong on so many levels - in ANY of its evil incarnations. Besides, it would be easier to move from java to C# than to VB.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I think an appointment with a psychiatrist is the first stop they should make.
Yes.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
easier to move from java to C# than to VB
I second that. After going through Java in college, C# was cakewalk.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
Very true :D
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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My first co-op student is wrapping up his placement this week and he made a comment that surprised me. At school he's been working almost exclusively I guess in Java and when he came here he was assigned to work on a VB.Net application. I gave him some time and told him to familiarize himself with the project but I didn't think it would be a difficult move to go from Java to VB - after all, an If statement is still an If statement, right? But today we sat down and had a little chat and he told me that he had felt overwhelmed by the experience, so now I'm wondering, if I get another student for whom the programming language is unfamiliar what can I do to ease the transition for him/her?
Others have suggested going to C# as syntactically speaking, it is very similar to Java. You will be able to use the same .Net framework in C# that is found in the existing VB.NET application. Perhaps have the student become familiar with the .Net framework in C# (since it is closer to Java), and once he/she understands the framework, the basterd VB.NET learning is moot since it is just syntax difference and the underlying .Net framework libraries are the same. You could just convert the VB.NET project to C# and make it easier.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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No, I mean if there was at least one candidate who knew at least a little VB, choose that one. Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java. Ideally your company's relationship with the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads
In a perfect world this would be good....but they don't listen to businesses but rather to accreditation entities and what they require so the school can be accredited.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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If someone comes out of school only knowing one language that school has some serious issues with their curriculum. Agreed. I started taking programming classes in the mid 80s at a community college, AA degree called "Computers for Small Business." The "intro to" class used Algorithm -- a pseudo-code based on Pascal -- to teach the concepts. Actual languages were started in the second semester with Pascal. I also learned C, COBOL, RPG and data entry (you can tell this was in the 80s, right?) in addition to accounting and general ed. I can't imagine a computer student finishing the second year -- YEAR -- and having exerience with only one programming language.
He stated he was 'In his second year'. It didn't mean anything more than having 3 semesters under his belt. As for myself, at that stage, my school had only touched on the fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures). It hadn't touched on multiple languages at that point. I think its a little rash to assume everyone's college curriculum followed the same flow as yours.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I think an appointment with a psychiatrist is the first stop they should make.
Yes.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
easier to move from java to C# than to VB
I second that. After going through Java in college, C# was cakewalk.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
Very true :D
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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I barely remember my undergrad days but each class seemed to use a different language, and then there was comparative languages doing about 10 in one class. So from my perspective you may have a defective source of students.
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With the exception of my web/network programming and assembly classes everything I used from 99-03 was C/C++. The web class gave very brief exposures to java and perl. The class coming up behind me were java for all the core stuff and probably only saw C in the OS course unless they sought it out in electives. The VB/Pascal/fortran classes were intended for non CS majors made unavailable after taking "CS101" to avoid upperclass slackers from getting free A's.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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He stated he was 'In his second year'. It didn't mean anything more than having 3 semesters under his belt. As for myself, at that stage, my school had only touched on the fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures). It hadn't touched on multiple languages at that point. I think its a little rash to assume everyone's college curriculum followed the same flow as yours.
You are correct. He has completed 3 semesters.
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He stated he was 'In his second year'. It didn't mean anything more than having 3 semesters under his belt. As for myself, at that stage, my school had only touched on the fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures). It hadn't touched on multiple languages at that point. I think its a little rash to assume everyone's college curriculum followed the same flow as yours.
I learned BASIC and Pascal before I started college. In my first year of college I had COBOL and Fortran. C in my second year. Data Structures (in Pascal), Assembly, and Lisp in my third year.
Andrew Rissing wrote:
fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures).
OOP is not a fundamental of programming (it is a very advanced topic) and was not presented in any of my courses. Turbo C++ V1.0 was released while I was in college; I had to teach myself. A student who has the programming bug will likely know more than one language whether the school teaches it or not.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads
In a perfect world this would be good....but they don't listen to businesses but rather to accreditation entities and what they require so the school can be accredited.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
When my wife worked for an ITT Tech, one of the things she had to do was meet with an advisory panel of "industry professionals" to discuss what the needs of the industry needed and how the school could help meet those needs.
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No, I mean if there was at least one candidate who knew at least a little VB, choose that one. Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java. Ideally your company's relationship with the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java.
Would you really do that? If you get the students who learned to program at school and not before it, you're pretty much screwed already anyway - except perhaps for the one or two exceptional students who can actually learn (I'm assuming they exist, but I've never seen proof of that)
