Suggested resources for co-op students moving from Java to VB
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I think an appointment with a psychiatrist is the first stop they should make. VB is just wrong on so many levels - in ANY of its evil incarnations. Besides, it would be easier to move from java to C# than to VB.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I think an appointment with a psychiatrist is the first stop they should make.
Yes.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
easier to move from java to C# than to VB
I second that. After going through Java in college, C# was cakewalk.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
Very true :D
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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My first co-op student is wrapping up his placement this week and he made a comment that surprised me. At school he's been working almost exclusively I guess in Java and when he came here he was assigned to work on a VB.Net application. I gave him some time and told him to familiarize himself with the project but I didn't think it would be a difficult move to go from Java to VB - after all, an If statement is still an If statement, right? But today we sat down and had a little chat and he told me that he had felt overwhelmed by the experience, so now I'm wondering, if I get another student for whom the programming language is unfamiliar what can I do to ease the transition for him/her?
Others have suggested going to C# as syntactically speaking, it is very similar to Java. You will be able to use the same .Net framework in C# that is found in the existing VB.NET application. Perhaps have the student become familiar with the .Net framework in C# (since it is closer to Java), and once he/she understands the framework, the basterd VB.NET learning is moot since it is just syntax difference and the underlying .Net framework libraries are the same. You could just convert the VB.NET project to C# and make it easier.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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No, I mean if there was at least one candidate who knew at least a little VB, choose that one. Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java. Ideally your company's relationship with the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads
In a perfect world this would be good....but they don't listen to businesses but rather to accreditation entities and what they require so the school can be accredited.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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If someone comes out of school only knowing one language that school has some serious issues with their curriculum. Agreed. I started taking programming classes in the mid 80s at a community college, AA degree called "Computers for Small Business." The "intro to" class used Algorithm -- a pseudo-code based on Pascal -- to teach the concepts. Actual languages were started in the second semester with Pascal. I also learned C, COBOL, RPG and data entry (you can tell this was in the 80s, right?) in addition to accounting and general ed. I can't imagine a computer student finishing the second year -- YEAR -- and having exerience with only one programming language.
He stated he was 'In his second year'. It didn't mean anything more than having 3 semesters under his belt. As for myself, at that stage, my school had only touched on the fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures). It hadn't touched on multiple languages at that point. I think its a little rash to assume everyone's college curriculum followed the same flow as yours.
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I barely remember my undergrad days but each class seemed to use a different language, and then there was comparative languages doing about 10 in one class. So from my perspective you may have a defective source of students.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
With the exception of my web/network programming and assembly classes everything I used from 99-03 was C/C++. The web class gave very brief exposures to java and perl. The class coming up behind me were java for all the core stuff and probably only saw C in the OS course unless they sought it out in electives. The VB/Pascal/fortran classes were intended for non CS majors made unavailable after taking "CS101" to avoid upperclass slackers from getting free A's.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I think an appointment with a psychiatrist is the first stop they should make.
Yes.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
easier to move from java to C# than to VB
I second that. After going through Java in college, C# was cakewalk.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
Very true :D
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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He stated he was 'In his second year'. It didn't mean anything more than having 3 semesters under his belt. As for myself, at that stage, my school had only touched on the fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures). It hadn't touched on multiple languages at that point. I think its a little rash to assume everyone's college curriculum followed the same flow as yours.
You are correct. He has completed 3 semesters.
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He stated he was 'In his second year'. It didn't mean anything more than having 3 semesters under his belt. As for myself, at that stage, my school had only touched on the fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures). It hadn't touched on multiple languages at that point. I think its a little rash to assume everyone's college curriculum followed the same flow as yours.
I learned BASIC and Pascal before I started college. In my first year of college I had COBOL and Fortran. C in my second year. Data Structures (in Pascal), Assembly, and Lisp in my third year.
Andrew Rissing wrote:
fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures).
OOP is not a fundamental of programming (it is a very advanced topic) and was not presented in any of my courses. Turbo C++ V1.0 was released while I was in college; I had to teach myself. A student who has the programming bug will likely know more than one language whether the school teaches it or not.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads
In a perfect world this would be good....but they don't listen to businesses but rather to accreditation entities and what they require so the school can be accredited.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
When my wife worked for an ITT Tech, one of the things she had to do was meet with an advisory panel of "industry professionals" to discuss what the needs of the industry needed and how the school could help meet those needs.
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No, I mean if there was at least one candidate who knew at least a little VB, choose that one. Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java. Ideally your company's relationship with the school should allow you to tell the school what you (and business in general) requires of new grads.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java.
Would you really do that? If you get the students who learned to program at school and not before it, you're pretty much screwed already anyway - except perhaps for the one or two exceptional students who can actually learn (I'm assuming they exist, but I've never seen proof of that)
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I learned BASIC and Pascal before I started college. In my first year of college I had COBOL and Fortran. C in my second year. Data Structures (in Pascal), Assembly, and Lisp in my third year.
Andrew Rissing wrote:
fundamentals of programming (C/C++, OOP, data structures).
OOP is not a fundamental of programming (it is a very advanced topic) and was not presented in any of my courses. Turbo C++ V1.0 was released while I was in college; I had to teach myself. A student who has the programming bug will likely know more than one language whether the school teaches it or not.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
A student who has the programming bug will likely know more than one language whether the school teaches it or not.
In that early part of school, I knew only C/C++. Granted, I may just be a sole individual or whatever that thought it more important to learn more about a single language than cast my nets at the time into other languages.
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My first co-op student is wrapping up his placement this week and he made a comment that surprised me. At school he's been working almost exclusively I guess in Java and when he came here he was assigned to work on a VB.Net application. I gave him some time and told him to familiarize himself with the project but I didn't think it would be a difficult move to go from Java to VB - after all, an If statement is still an If statement, right? But today we sat down and had a little chat and he told me that he had felt overwhelmed by the experience, so now I'm wondering, if I get another student for whom the programming language is unfamiliar what can I do to ease the transition for him/her?
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Honestly, there are II types of developers. I. Those That Get Dirty With The Documentation or II. Those That Don't (Sorry if this off-shoot of the binary joke offends anyone)
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Java (frying pan) --> VB (flaming fires of hell). It might have beaan easier to go: Java (frying pan) --> C# (fluffy clouds)
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
C# -> don't run with scissors
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java.
Would you really do that? If you get the students who learned to program at school and not before it, you're pretty much screwed already anyway - except perhaps for the one or two exceptional students who can actually learn (I'm assuming they exist, but I've never seen proof of that)
Yes. Especially with a co-op program. It just seems to be good business sense. Would an Italian restaurant hire a cook who only knows how to cook Chinese food?
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
A student who has the programming bug will likely know more than one language whether the school teaches it or not.
In that early part of school, I knew only C/C++. Granted, I may just be a sole individual or whatever that thought it more important to learn more about a single language than cast my nets at the time into other languages.
Well, if you learn only one programming language, let it be C/C++. :-D
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Yes. Especially with a co-op program. It just seems to be good business sense. Would an Italian restaurant hire a cook who only knows how to cook Chinese food?
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Or don't agree to take on co-op students from a school that only teaches Java.
Would you really do that? If you get the students who learned to program at school and not before it, you're pretty much screwed already anyway - except perhaps for the one or two exceptional students who can actually learn (I'm assuming they exist, but I've never seen proof of that)
Perhaps your experiences have lead you down that path, but I wouldn't be so cynical to think that a student would be unwilling to learn.
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Yes. Especially with a co-op program. It just seems to be good business sense. Would an Italian restaurant hire a cook who only knows how to cook Chinese food?
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Would an Italian restaurant hire a cook who only knows how to cook Chinese food?
If both parties knew what they were getting into and the cook was paid appropriately, why not? Ultimately, good programmers (as with most professions) are people who intend to constantly grow and learn new things. Typically, you can pick those people out of a crowd.
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Perhaps your experiences have lead you down that path, but I wouldn't be so cynical to think that a student would be unwilling to learn.
Well that's just what I see every day - they learn the bare minimum to pass a course with lowest possible grade that lets them pass, do no programming at home and are not even interested in learning things that are not in the curriculum. But there are exceptions to every rule, of course..
