Is this common everywhere?
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If you think that's tough, try being a VB application developer.... I wrote my first program for money in 1979 for a Radioshak TRS80 - CPM Anyone remember that? Operating systems and languages come and go, it's all just tools and synatx. In my limited experience end users never give a single thought to the language or operating system, only the results. All the rest is insecure people defending what they "Know".
Ed Aymami wrote:
In my limited experience end users never give a single thought to the language or operating system, only the results.
Well, except for the occasional marketing person that manages to latch onto a technical term and turn it into the word for the day in an attempt to sell a product.
Ed Aymami wrote:
All the rest is insecure people defending what they "Know".
Yep.
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Bruce Patin wrote:
Microsoft did NOT support the PC revolution, which was going strong without them
I suspect that the "PC revolution" would have been far different if the underdog, which was in fact Microsoft at the time, had not managed to slip a minor clause into the contract with IBM concerning the OS that they were creating. The one that allowed them to sell the OS on computers from other vendors. Without that it is very likely that all vendors would be like Apple.
Bruce Patin wrote:
What they did was to simplify the PC revolution a bit by killing off competitors using illegal and unethical practices.
Obviously subjective nonsense. You must work for and look for jobs in a far, far different economy that I do. There are certainly tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of technologica companies that exist outside of Microsoft. You do in fact know which computer company is currently worth the most right? The one that does in fact maintain a strict monopoly over not just one but several technologies? Even to the extent that they attempted to criminalize the use of one of them for uses that they did not approve?
Microsoft deliberately killed Dr. DOS. Microsoft's contract with IBM also eventually killed OS/2. There are lots of other technology companies, but Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop operating systems in the U.S., and, until recently, has not even tried to cooperate with other companies or adhere to world standards. I am not saying Microsoft is the worst. Apple is obviously worse. IBM would be if it could - about ten years ago, IBM's consent agreement ended, and IBM promptly killed off competitors in the mainframe business. Business should try to get along for the sake of their customers, and should rise and fall on the strength of their products, not on shady deals. It irritates me daily that I have to constantly be aware to change backslashes to forward slashes or the other way around, depending on what system I am working on, or that I have to make special tweaks in JavaScript (the name of which was stupidly changed from LiveScript by a salesman) to get my web pages to work on more than one browser, or that I have to install Microsoft Office on all of my home computers at great expense, simply because our jobs and the school systems are so stuck on Microsoft that they can't tolerate anything different.
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Joel@Novaspect wrote:
To address the cost factor up front before some naive coder tells me that Microsoft is too expensive I'll say this... on a development project what is the most expensive item on the project? Don't think too hard... really. Its the developer. The argument that, because Microsoft is a 'commercial' platform that it costs too much is misguided. If I can finish a project in 4 weeks and it takes you 6 then 2 weeks of salary just went down the drain. With at 2 weeks of salary saved, I could afford my MSDN subscription, buy pizza for the project team and take a short vacation. Then, because there is such a broad base of Microsoft skills, the person who comes in 2 years later should be able to update my code... and also, take a short vacation.
I'd love to agree with you, but the bean counters I've always encountered all my career seem to think software is expensive and my time is "free". Suppose I propose purchasing a piece of software that would cut my development time by half. To to bean counter they still have to pay me for the whole time AND they have to pay for the software as well. Productivity is not something that shows up on the bottom line. Anymore I just buy the software/hardware myself and then submit a reimbursement request. I am no longer going to beat my head again a wall because management or a bean counter wants to plead poverty (while having the money to fly around the country and buying themselves company cars). Now they have to justify not paying me rather than me justifying why I need something. If I'm paying for it out of my own pocket, it is necessary and as cheap as possible, I cannot be accused of being a kid in a candy store with expense money.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
I've lived in environments like that myself. So, I empathize. However, I moved on when the next opportunity arose because, for the same reason you outline, I felt devalued. This type of environment is the result of poor project and/or administrative management. Your manager should see the value in quality and quality tools even when those who underwrite the project don't. Its your management that should go to bat for you in that situation but then also hold you accountable for your productivity claims. Now that I'm gone from that company, they can save even more money because they likely hired a newby that costs less per hour. So, they are saving money... even if the tasks that took me 1/2 hour done with 99% accuracy take the newby an entire day with errors. :wtf: Right? I don't fit into an organization where a manager or a company culture have the foresite and iq of a cinder block.
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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Yeah, Opera is not worth the time, especially since MSIE comes prepackaged in the OS. Why bother following standards when you can make them up as you go, knowing most users don't know you can have multiple browsers loaded and running. Careful, you might break something and once you lose MSIE, you're screwed.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
BrainiacV wrote:
Why bother following standards when you can make them up as you go
And all those browsers that crow about fully supporting the HTML 5 "standard" are actually following finalized published and approved standards? How can that be when HTML 5 is an unfinished spec and it's not likely to be signed off as "finalized" (which means there will be changes) for quite some time. Also, I've read some online blog articles that indicated that each of the HTML 5 capable browsers have slightly different interpretations of some of the tags in this unfinished spec, therefore even if you code your pages in HTML5 you STILL have to verify your page in each browser that's available to make sure it looks the same across all of them. So please get off your high horse, browsers are a tool, nothing more and by the time HTML 5 is completely signed off, all the browsers will support it and the ones with the latest date will be the most complete.
Mike Poz
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I give two bits about what my geek points are. I've been dealing with your God Gates since he lied to MITS (are you old enough to remember that?) that he had a BASIC interpreter and then stole university computer time to write it. Gates has never been a true believer, it has always been about the $$$. I'm just using the spelling he should have used.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
Gates isn't my god, never has been. Was he a smart business man? Absolutely. Do I wish I had as much money as he does? Definitely. Did he piss off petty people like you? Most assuredly. I'm well aware of his history in business (I'm over the half century mark *and* I'm very well read) and he didn't do anything illegal. As for "stealing university computer time" everything I can find says that while Harvard administrators weren't happy that he used the computer (which was DARPA funded), he didn't steal the time because there was no policy in place about the use of the computer. And with regard to your "true believer" statement, that tells me everything I need to know about you, so I'm not going to waste any more time with this. You should go back to your parents basement now.
Mike Poz