Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead...
-
Sure, you hate him, and you've got good reason to. Unfortunately, he and others like him also hate you, because of the power that has been given to capitalism, which, never forget, is an evil according to every religion on the planet. How many times does it have to be said that hatred cannot be cured by bullets and bombs? Killing him in such an un-Christian way, does not, and will not, make things better. Expect worse to come, because all that blind hatred can do is make things worse. It's only when you try to understand why people hate you that you can begin to make things better.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to differ you see I'm not a Christian, agnostic at best, IMHO all of the major (and probably the minor) faiths are flawed. I don't care how strong your beleifs are or even what you beleive in just keep them to yourself. I think that past a certain point talking is a waste of hot air. I have no problem talking to muslims or any religious person, it extremists and fanatics of all kinds I have a problem with.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
-
Trollslayer wrote:
There are people who search for a god who happens to have the same prejudices as them.
Too true. Unfortunately, the Cristian God is used to support any and all prejudices, so the warmongers on our side are just the same as the warmongers on theirs.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
so the warmongers on our side are just the same as the warmongers on theirs.
Too true.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
-
digital man wrote:
I take it your line is one of appeasement? How very craven of you.
I take it your line is one of killing as many people as possible, on both sides. How very clever of you. As long as people consider other people as inferior or less than human, there is no possibility of stopping the killing. The point is that all people are just people with different opinions. Until they start considering the opinions of those who disagree with them, there will be just more and more killing -- more and more bombs killing innocent civilians and nasty men alike, whether "Eastern terrorist" bombs or "righteous Western" bombs. It ain't rocket surgery: If you want your kids to live in fear, support the continuation of the killing. If you don't, start talking to people, and actually listen to what they're saying. Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths. I'd say that the coward is the man who will refuse to meet such responsibility as an adult.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
I take it your line is one of killing as many people as possible, on both sides.
Don't believe I said that and no, it isn't. However, when faced with an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that they think and whose dictum is to kill me and mine then yes, I will strike first and hard to protect me and mine. If you wish to turn the other cheek then be my guest but don't include me in your cowardice: you should simply roll over and see if they tickle your tummy.
Mark Wallace wrote:
Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths.
That does not matter: unless you are prepared to give in to what they want they will never stop until they do get what they want. I'm astonished at how naive such a purportedly intelligent man can be.
Mark Wallace wrote:
I'd say that the coward is the man who will refuse to meet such responsibility as an adult.
And I would say it is cowardly to allow a situation to develop that can threaten you and yours from such lunatics. At least I would have the courage to stand up to them whereas you appear to want to sit down and talk and reach a compromise. There is no compromise with these people: they are utterly alien to us and no matter what you give them they will want more until they have it all. Your bizarre morality will be the death of you.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to differ you see I'm not a Christian, agnostic at best, IMHO all of the major (and probably the minor) faiths are flawed. I don't care how strong your beleifs are or even what you beleive in just keep them to yourself. I think that past a certain point talking is a waste of hot air. I have no problem talking to muslims or any religious person, it extremists and fanatics of all kinds I have a problem with.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
I have no problem talking to muslims or any religious person, it extremists and fanatics of all kinds I have a problem with.
Spot on. The trouble is that it's those people who are the most listened to and publicised. Wild invective must be more interesting than common sense, for many people.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
It's interesting that he has been in Pakistan for so long.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
... and very close to Islamabad. In a garrison town. Just saying #whistles#
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often *students*, for heaven's sake. -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
-
... and very close to Islamabad. In a garrison town. Just saying #whistles#
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often *students*, for heaven's sake. -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
-
Roger Wright wrote:
These people are not Muslims; they're sociopathic mass murderers who take on the colors of a peaceful faith in order to mask the true nature of their actions.
Actually, they're religious people, whose religion says the same thing that all religions say: that capitalism is evil and the work of the devil. I really find it difficult to classify someone as evil if he's is willing to die in the fight against what he believes to be evil. Celebrating the death (or, in this case, cold-blooded murder which involved the murder of thousands upon thousands of others as "collateral damage") of such a man should hardly be a recommended pastime for Christians, whose own son of God himself once destroyed a temple of capitalism, so will probably welcome into Heaven others who fight against the same evil. A lot of people need to do a lot of serious thinking about whom and what they're supporting, and whom and what they're hating.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I love my country (Capitalism and all of it) and I am glad we killed OBL. If that makes me evil than I guess I'm a Satan worshiper then.
-- You don't hire a handyman to build a house, you hire a specialist.
-
Wonder if they have indisputable evidence?
Why can't I be applicable like John? - Me, April 2011
-----
Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn - Seán Bán Breathnach
-----
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
-----
Just because a thing is new don’t mean that it’s better - Will Rogers, September 4, 1932They made damned sure they got the body.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
Wonder if they have indisputable evidence?
Why can't I be applicable like John? - Me, April 2011
-----
Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn - Seán Bán Breathnach
-----
Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
-----
Just because a thing is new don’t mean that it’s better - Will Rogers, September 4, 1932They made damned sure they got the body, though of course some people will refute it is his.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
-Or-
A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^] -
Mark Wallace wrote:
I take it your line is one of killing as many people as possible, on both sides.
Don't believe I said that and no, it isn't. However, when faced with an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that they think and whose dictum is to kill me and mine then yes, I will strike first and hard to protect me and mine. If you wish to turn the other cheek then be my guest but don't include me in your cowardice: you should simply roll over and see if they tickle your tummy.
Mark Wallace wrote:
Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths.
That does not matter: unless you are prepared to give in to what they want they will never stop until they do get what they want. I'm astonished at how naive such a purportedly intelligent man can be.
Mark Wallace wrote:
I'd say that the coward is the man who will refuse to meet such responsibility as an adult.
And I would say it is cowardly to allow a situation to develop that can threaten you and yours from such lunatics. At least I would have the courage to stand up to them whereas you appear to want to sit down and talk and reach a compromise. There is no compromise with these people: they are utterly alien to us and no matter what you give them they will want more until they have it all. Your bizarre morality will be the death of you.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
digital man wrote:
However, when faced with an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that they think and whose dictum is to kill me and mine then yes, I will strike first and hard to protect me and mine.
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths.
That does not matter: unless you are prepared to give in to what they want they will never stop until they do get what they want.
Nonsense. You're dehumanising them, which is the worst possible thing to do. We are talking about people with families and children. If you believe that they are not human, or that they are inferior creatures, then you are wrong. They will fight for their beliefs the same way that you will fight for yours, and all that will happen is that more people will get killed. If you don't try to understand these people -- these humans; your equals -- then you must also accept partial responsibility for what they do. Try: "How would I like it if the greed of people in [enter country name] led to the suffering of millions of people in countries all over the world?" I don't have an argument against that, because it's an obvious truth. Western greed, with its "grab everything then crash and burn" tenet has devastating effects on people all over the world, and we don't even have the balls to apologise. It really is no wonder that people in the East look West and see evil. If they were doing it to us, our "terrorists" would be hailed as heroes, for fighting it. Unless you stop ignoring our own "peccadilloes", and start considering that the guys on the other side of the fence are just that -- guys -- you really are a part of the problem.
digital man wrote:
lunatics
digital man wrote:
utterly alien to us
Try "people" and "pissed off with us", and you'll be getting somewhere, otherwise, th
-
digital man wrote:
However, when faced with an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that they think and whose dictum is to kill me and mine then yes, I will strike first and hard to protect me and mine.
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths.
That does not matter: unless you are prepared to give in to what they want they will never stop until they do get what they want.
Nonsense. You're dehumanising them, which is the worst possible thing to do. We are talking about people with families and children. If you believe that they are not human, or that they are inferior creatures, then you are wrong. They will fight for their beliefs the same way that you will fight for yours, and all that will happen is that more people will get killed. If you don't try to understand these people -- these humans; your equals -- then you must also accept partial responsibility for what they do. Try: "How would I like it if the greed of people in [enter country name] led to the suffering of millions of people in countries all over the world?" I don't have an argument against that, because it's an obvious truth. Western greed, with its "grab everything then crash and burn" tenet has devastating effects on people all over the world, and we don't even have the balls to apologise. It really is no wonder that people in the East look West and see evil. If they were doing it to us, our "terrorists" would be hailed as heroes, for fighting it. Unless you stop ignoring our own "peccadilloes", and start considering that the guys on the other side of the fence are just that -- guys -- you really are a part of the problem.
digital man wrote:
lunatics
digital man wrote:
utterly alien to us
Try "people" and "pissed off with us", and you'll be getting somewhere, otherwise, th
Mark Wallace wrote:
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
Never said that either: if someone comes along and starts killing innocent people and will not compromise then what are we to do? Let them carry on, perhaps clap on the back for a job well done? And why are they doing it? Not for our benefit, certainly but to impress upon us their way of life. No thank you, not interested and I will not just keep turning the other cheek becuase they'll just keep slapping until I give up.
Mark Wallace wrote:
Nonsense. You're dehumanising them, which is the worst possible thing to do.
Don't talk twaddle: you're twisting what I say to suit your own agenda. I fully accept that these are people with families and children and I hate that we are fighting. The difference is that I would happily stop so we can all live together in a happy-clappy little utopia: they won't. They won't stop till they get what they want because they don't care if we live or die. never mind us dehumanising them they have never seen us as anything like human in the first place: their culture does not allow it. Either we become like them or we are simply targets for their atrocities. As I say if you're happy with that then go and live in Yemen or Iraq and see how you like it.
Mark Wallace wrote:
Try "people" and "pissed off with us", and you'll be getting somewhere, otherwise, they'll see you as just a lunatic who is utterly alien to them -- and it really does appear that the West will never stop until it has it all.
If you really hate the west that much then go live elsewhere; in the meantime I like it here and I will do whatever I need to do to protect it: plainly you won't so pardon me if I see you as a appeaser and terribly naive but your words don't suggest otherwise.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
Mark Wallace wrote:
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
Never said that either: if someone comes along and starts killing innocent people and will not compromise then what are we to do? Let them carry on, perhaps clap on the back for a job well done? And why are they doing it? Not for our benefit, certainly but to impress upon us their way of life. No thank you, not interested and I will not just keep turning the other cheek becuase they'll just keep slapping until I give up.
Mark Wallace wrote:
Nonsense. You're dehumanising them, which is the worst possible thing to do.
Don't talk twaddle: you're twisting what I say to suit your own agenda. I fully accept that these are people with families and children and I hate that we are fighting. The difference is that I would happily stop so we can all live together in a happy-clappy little utopia: they won't. They won't stop till they get what they want because they don't care if we live or die. never mind us dehumanising them they have never seen us as anything like human in the first place: their culture does not allow it. Either we become like them or we are simply targets for their atrocities. As I say if you're happy with that then go and live in Yemen or Iraq and see how you like it.
Mark Wallace wrote:
Try "people" and "pissed off with us", and you'll be getting somewhere, otherwise, they'll see you as just a lunatic who is utterly alien to them -- and it really does appear that the West will never stop until it has it all.
If you really hate the west that much then go live elsewhere; in the meantime I like it here and I will do whatever I need to do to protect it: plainly you won't so pardon me if I see you as a appeaser and terribly naive but your words don't suggest otherwise.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
Never said that either
Actually, that's all you've said. You give lip service to the idea that they are humans, but you follow it up with "They're inhuman B*st*rds!" rants.
digital man wrote:
you're twisting what I say to suit your own agenda.
What you said in another posting to this thread is that we have to take them all out. Pray tell how that can be twisted. Did you mean to say "They're human beings with strong beliefs"? If so, I missed the inference. I imagine that the fanatics on their side of the fence talk a lot about killing, too -- the difference being that they get out of their armchairs, rather than just verbalise their hatred.
digital man wrote:
I like it here and I will do whatever I need to do to protect it
I'm sure you'll be right there, cheering the TV, as our soldiers go off to kill and die. This thread has now become too soapbox for the lounge, so I'm quitting it.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
Never said that either
Actually, that's all you've said. You give lip service to the idea that they are humans, but you follow it up with "They're inhuman B*st*rds!" rants.
digital man wrote:
you're twisting what I say to suit your own agenda.
What you said in another posting to this thread is that we have to take them all out. Pray tell how that can be twisted. Did you mean to say "They're human beings with strong beliefs"? If so, I missed the inference. I imagine that the fanatics on their side of the fence talk a lot about killing, too -- the difference being that they get out of their armchairs, rather than just verbalise their hatred.
digital man wrote:
I like it here and I will do whatever I need to do to protect it
I'm sure you'll be right there, cheering the TV, as our soldiers go off to kill and die. This thread has now become too soapbox for the lounge, so I'm quitting it.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Actually, that's all you've said.
You give lip service to the idea that they are humans, but you follow it up with "They're inhuman B*st*rds!" rants.WTF are you talking about???
Mark Wallace wrote:
What you said in another posting to this thread is that we have to take them all out
Given our possible choices for a peaceful outcome; yes, before they do it to us and they will, given the chance, do it.
Mark Wallace wrote:
I'm sure you'll be right there, cheering the TV, as our soldiers go off to kill and die.
Absolutely not: I'd rather just nuke them and be done.
Mark Wallace wrote:
This thread has now become too soapbox for the lounge, so I'm quitting it.
Yes, do what cowards always do, run and hide.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
-
Sure, you hate him, and you've got good reason to. Unfortunately, he and others like him also hate you, because of the power that has been given to capitalism, which, never forget, is an evil according to every religion on the planet. How many times does it have to be said that hatred cannot be cured by bullets and bombs? Killing him in such an un-Christian way, does not, and will not, make things better. Expect worse to come, because all that blind hatred can do is make things worse. It's only when you try to understand why people hate you that you can begin to make things better.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
How many times does it have to be said that hatred cannot be cured by bullets and bombs? Killing him in such an un-Christian way, does not, and will not, make things better. Expect worse to come, because all that blind hatred can do is make things worse
He won't be organizing or helping to pay for any more attacks on innocent people. As long as people like the Navy Seals are willing to fight to protect you, you can spout your idealistic rhetoric. Remember this guy would have been more than happy to kill you or yours.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
-
digital man wrote:
However, when faced with an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that they think and whose dictum is to kill me and mine then yes, I will strike first and hard to protect me and mine.
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths.
That does not matter: unless you are prepared to give in to what they want they will never stop until they do get what they want.
Nonsense. You're dehumanising them, which is the worst possible thing to do. We are talking about people with families and children. If you believe that they are not human, or that they are inferior creatures, then you are wrong. They will fight for their beliefs the same way that you will fight for yours, and all that will happen is that more people will get killed. If you don't try to understand these people -- these humans; your equals -- then you must also accept partial responsibility for what they do. Try: "How would I like it if the greed of people in [enter country name] led to the suffering of millions of people in countries all over the world?" I don't have an argument against that, because it's an obvious truth. Western greed, with its "grab everything then crash and burn" tenet has devastating effects on people all over the world, and we don't even have the balls to apologise. It really is no wonder that people in the East look West and see evil. If they were doing it to us, our "terrorists" would be hailed as heroes, for fighting it. Unless you stop ignoring our own "peccadilloes", and start considering that the guys on the other side of the fence are just that -- guys -- you really are a part of the problem.
digital man wrote:
lunatics
digital man wrote:
utterly alien to us
Try "people" and "pissed off with us", and you'll be getting somewhere, otherwise, th
I think the problem you have is believing that you can reason with everyone. When someone enters your hoe, your place of business or your country to try and kill you, the time for reason is over. Its fine to spout platitudes about discussing our differences, and when the other person is willing to talk, thats great. But some people have no interest in conversation. This guy was one of them.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
-
Mark Wallace wrote:
Actually, that's all you've said.
You give lip service to the idea that they are humans, but you follow it up with "They're inhuman B*st*rds!" rants.WTF are you talking about???
Mark Wallace wrote:
What you said in another posting to this thread is that we have to take them all out
Given our possible choices for a peaceful outcome; yes, before they do it to us and they will, given the chance, do it.
Mark Wallace wrote:
I'm sure you'll be right there, cheering the TV, as our soldiers go off to kill and die.
Absolutely not: I'd rather just nuke them and be done.
Mark Wallace wrote:
This thread has now become too soapbox for the lounge, so I'm quitting it.
Yes, do what cowards always do, run and hide.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Having a debate with Mark is like climbing an ice mountain, it will get you absolutely no where fast. My 2 cents.
-- You don't hire a handyman to build a house, you hire a specialist.
-
You , and your country are the evil one ! And Lucifer him self came to take lessons from you !
I know nothing , I know nothing ...
-
Mark Wallace wrote:
How many times does it have to be said that hatred cannot be cured by bullets and bombs? Killing him in such an un-Christian way, does not, and will not, make things better. Expect worse to come, because all that blind hatred can do is make things worse
He won't be organizing or helping to pay for any more attacks on innocent people. As long as people like the Navy Seals are willing to fight to protect you, you can spout your idealistic rhetoric. Remember this guy would have been more than happy to kill you or yours.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote:
Remember this guy would have been more than happy to kill you or yours.
And his friends and family will be ever more happy to do so now, seeing his death as murder and martyrdom. So what, exactly, did all the violence and death involved in killing him achieve? Where's the profit? It hasn't made us any friends. People who hated us now hate us more; people who didn't much like us now hate us. And don't for one minute think that it has made them afraid. You can't take away someone's beliefs with violence. The only fear now is on our side, because there will be reprisals (so you can expect to lose a few more civil rights, in the interests of "national security"). Surely it's quite obvious that making things worse does not make things better. The best warriors know that if there's no way to win a battle, you don't start it, and there isn't a victory to be had, here -- unless your final aim is genocide (and if it is, then I don't want you on my side -- you belong with the psychos and bad-guys). Understanding your opponent's motives is a good start toward preventing increases in his following, and in making friends of people who could have become enemies -- but that requires thinking, common sense, and morals; it's hard, grown-ups' work. We don't want that, do we? It's so much easier to sit in armchairs and scream "KILL 'EM ALL!", isn't it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
I think the problem you have is believing that you can reason with everyone. When someone enters your hoe, your place of business or your country to try and kill you, the time for reason is over. Its fine to spout platitudes about discussing our differences, and when the other person is willing to talk, thats great. But some people have no interest in conversation. This guy was one of them.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote:
I think the problem you have is believing that you can reason with everyone.
No, you can't. But giving them easy ways to gain followers is just plain stupid. Finding ways to sideline and alienate them within their own communities may be more difficult and less fun than the "playstation" solution, but it's the only way to win such a war. And remember that every time you have to kowtow in the name of national security, you are giving them a victory.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
Having a debate with Mark is like climbing an ice mountain, it will get you absolutely no where fast. My 2 cents.
-- You don't hire a handyman to build a house, you hire a specialist.
I know but it is fun cos I know he's full of crap and will run as soon as he gets mired in his own nonsensical naivety: he really is a bit of a coward.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me