Career Direction...
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I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
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I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
phagerty wrote:
I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives).
Sounds like the sort of job I would love to do!
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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phagerty wrote:
I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives).
Sounds like the sort of job I would love to do!
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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The one I quoted, basically the first paragraph :) Have a look at my profile, you will see why :)
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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The one I quoted, basically the first paragraph :) Have a look at my profile, you will see why :)
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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Ah. I get it. I think that of the various languages and platforms I've used over the decades, I liked Java best. ~Patrick
Really? I prefer C and assembler.
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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Really? I prefer C and assembler.
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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What can I say. I like object-oriented languages. C++ would be a moderately close 2nd place choice. Well, I also really enjoyed APL when in college. That is a seriously fascinating language. So, Lloyd, any thoughts about my question? ~Patrick
All I can think of is either something in the area of embedded systems, as you have the background for it, or a Java programmer as you have the background for that too.
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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All I can think of is either something in the area of embedded systems, as you have the background for it, or a Java programmer as you have the background for that too.
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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Well, it's not so much a question of which direction to go in software development, but whether I should even consider returning to development in view of my extended divergence from that career path.
I don't see why not really. Perhaps if needed, start a small job somewhere, and then progress on to a bigger job. At least then in the eyes of an employer you will have had a recent job.
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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I don't see why not really. Perhaps if needed, start a small job somewhere, and then progress on to a bigger job. At least then in the eyes of an employer you will have had a recent job.
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
Small job? Could you give me an idea of what you mean by small job? And, why would the small job any easier to obtain than a less small job? I'd still have to sell them on my being able to do the job with a 10-year gap in my record as a developer, and I'd have to perform at an acceptable level to keep the job. Let's face it, this abysmal recession and my extended unemployment have really crippled my self-confidence.
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Small job? Could you give me an idea of what you mean by small job? And, why would the small job any easier to obtain than a less small job? I'd still have to sell them on my being able to do the job with a 10-year gap in my record as a developer, and I'd have to perform at an acceptable level to keep the job. Let's face it, this abysmal recession and my extended unemployment have really crippled my self-confidence.
Well, by small job I mean a job that is not likely to need upto the minute knowledge of recent developments in programming.
See if you can crack this: b749f6c269a746243debc6488046e33f
So far, no one seems to have cracked this!The unofficial awesome history of Code Project's Bob! "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
phagerty wrote:
Software Quality Assurance
So you have one of those nit picky, pedantic minds that can do QA yech! Sorry the bane of most developers is the QA person, the delight of most team leads is the QA person. I beleive experience counts for an awful lot, us old fart need to drum this into the management teams we deal with. Having said that you do need current experience with the code, learning on the job/contract is going to be a hard sell (obviously you have learnt this). I'd pick a tech and build something, just like a newbie, get your knowledge up there where you are confident you can tackle requirements with at least one set of tech (winforms, WPF, Silverlight or any of the non .net flavours).
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
You absolutely can do it! I did a similar thing, except that, as an electronics engineer I had to design and build all the hardware I programmed. Then peace broke out, that Wall came down, the Soviet Union collapsed and I was laid off from my job as a Project Engineer where I helped to defend the Free World from "rabid Comminests" by developing ever more powerful and accurate ICBMs. That was 1992. In 2005 I finally found a job again, the real kind. In the interim I fixed PCs, worked in a hardware store, and sold parts at a boat shop. I rewired the outlets in a bar once for beer, and fixed their CCTV system just because it was fun to do, and I got to sit upstairs with a bird's eye view on Ladies Pool Night. I stripped out and rebuilt the wiring in a lift truck for a guy who owned a sign shop for $40. I taught computer repair and business math at a local college. I even wrote a program in Paradox Application Language (PAL) for a relative who was running a MLM scam for a while. Then I found my current job, working for a tribal electric utility company despite having no experience in the power industry. They hired me to manage their computers and their customer database, but things snowballed and soon I was being asked to design underground residential and commercial distribution systems. Then they asked me to do a couple of substations for them, and I had to teach myself how to design with steel I-beams and concrete foundations, in addition to the electrical parts. Two years ago we took over operation of the water distribution and sewer collection and treatment operations, and I'm again called upon to update my skill set. I've designed sewer lines, water wells, pumping station control systems, and will soon be designing all the infrastructure for a new commercial complex for the tribe. Next week I have to finish up on a contract to build a new 69kV transmission line, then plan and manage the job. The timing of that is remarkable, as I just applied for admission to Grad School for a MS in Engineering, and the course I'll be taking first is Engineering Management. I'll probably be able to use the transmission line as my class project. Don't think for a minute that you can't do it. Yes, there will be challenges, but those only make you stronger if you embrace them as life lessons and use your head to discover the best way to overcome them. Lots of people will tell you good, logical reasons why you shouldn't try. But it's not their lives you want to live; listen and learn, for there may be some gems amongst the
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I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
Patrick, I'd think you're a natural for a number of positions. Any outfit doing process control applications, real-time development, or embedded programming. Think of commercial applications, large machinery, and so on. Your QA background would be a plus. In my experience those sorts of projects don't get tested adequately, given the relative difficulty of instrumenting them for testing.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
Sounds like you need to get your confidence up. Have you ever thought about volunteering some work for a non-profit that you can relate to? There are many different organizations doing good work that need someone to do web site work, if that is a way you would like to go. You will be in contact with like minded people and will be building you skills back up. You never know where networking will lead in situations like that. If embedded systems are the way you want to go think about contributing to an open source project. This would work for web development also. Again you will be building on the experience you have from the past and getting valuable, confidence building, current experience. You will also learn from others that are also contributing to the project. I know that neither of these options pay anything, but you seriously need to gain confidence in your abilities before you will be able to go out and get employment. Both options can be put on your CV as current experience and you can say with confidence that you can do the job when one becomes available. Don't underestimate networking when it comes to finding work.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I was an Electronics Technician in the Navy after a couple years studying the same in college. When I got out of the Navy in 1979 I started coding assembler drivers for micro-controller systems that predated PCs, and for bit-slice architecture systems. Then along came the original 4.77 MHz, 8088-based IBM PC (with dual floppy drives). I used MASM (Microsoft's Macro Assembler) and C (also by Microsoft), then Borland came out with Turbo Pascal. Eventually, there came Windows 3.1 and Windows application development in C then in C++. When the Internet burst onto the technological scene I migrated over to developing Java applets, then I did server side applications development (still in Java) at a dot-com start-up until the dot-com bubble burst back in 2001. Software contracts (and jobs) dried up then, so I shifted over into Software Quality Assurance (in aerospace: AS9100, DO-178B, etc.) in 2002. So, why the history lesson? At the end of 2009 I got downsized out of my SQA job and haven't been able to find similar work since. Thinking that I might improve my chances of finding work by broadening the range of jobs I pursue, I started looking at software jobs once again. The thing is, I've barely touched coding since 2001. I've fiddled around with the Netbeans IDE from time to time, and I recently got my hands on MS Visual Studio 2010, but it's amazing to me how much I've forgotten. The more I muck around with it the more I begin to remember stuff. What's more, it occurs to me that since I learned all that stuff once before I'm sure I can relearn it. But, can I relearn it fast enough. So, the question I wanted to ask the group is, is it really worth trying to sell myself as a developer after having been out of it for almost a decade? I've even given thought to applying for entry level development positions. All opinions and advice are appreciated. ~Patrick http://www.linkedin.com/in/phagerty
Even if you have recent dev experience, it's hard to find work in this job climate. I saw a horrible statistic on the nightly news, that if you're 55, and you get laid off, the chance that you'll *ever* find work again is only 35 percent(!) Age discrimination is a fact of life especially in the software business, which values this years' hot language and inexpensive new college grads. The good news is that you're way more employable with software dev experience than you are as a general manager or practically any other skilled job. First, decide how badly you want to work as a dev. If you only half remember how to code, and your experience is 10 years old, and you don't have a CS degree, and you aren't motivated to fix these issues, then don't even bother. Your chances of getting a dev job in your current state are nil. And why should they be any better? There are plenty of candidates who do know their stuff. So what to do... If you don't have a CS degree, get one. Your turn-down rate will be like 90% without one. Doesn't matter that you know your stuff, the degree proves you can stick with something for 4 years. If you're having a hard time getting a regular full-time dev job, try contracting. The stakes are lower because the employer knows they can get rid of you no-fuss, no-muss if you're a failure. If you knew C++ and Java, you ought to be pretty employable. If you don't remember your C++ and your Java, then study, duh! You can't afford to do less than perfectly in a phone screen or in-house coding interview, and you'll face a lot of that.
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Even if you have recent dev experience, it's hard to find work in this job climate. I saw a horrible statistic on the nightly news, that if you're 55, and you get laid off, the chance that you'll *ever* find work again is only 35 percent(!) Age discrimination is a fact of life especially in the software business, which values this years' hot language and inexpensive new college grads. The good news is that you're way more employable with software dev experience than you are as a general manager or practically any other skilled job. First, decide how badly you want to work as a dev. If you only half remember how to code, and your experience is 10 years old, and you don't have a CS degree, and you aren't motivated to fix these issues, then don't even bother. Your chances of getting a dev job in your current state are nil. And why should they be any better? There are plenty of candidates who do know their stuff. So what to do... If you don't have a CS degree, get one. Your turn-down rate will be like 90% without one. Doesn't matter that you know your stuff, the degree proves you can stick with something for 4 years. If you're having a hard time getting a regular full-time dev job, try contracting. The stakes are lower because the employer knows they can get rid of you no-fuss, no-muss if you're a failure. If you knew C++ and Java, you ought to be pretty employable. If you don't remember your C++ and your Java, then study, duh! You can't afford to do less than perfectly in a phone screen or in-house coding interview, and you'll face a lot of that.
Well, I'm in classes right now. I'm attending part-time at a local community college to update my skills and to demonstrate that I'm not just sitting around playing computer games; I'm busy improving myself and pursuing employment. I'm VERY motivated to do whatever is necessary. I obtained MS Visual Studio 2010 to familiarize myself with what's changed since Visual C++ ver. 6. I've also made it a habit to download and install each new release of the NetBeans IDE. I've recently resurrected an old web applet I created to revise and update as an exercise to refresh my Java skills. I also have a very extensive history as a software contractor. I've told the head hunters and job shops that I'll take either contract or direct positions in either QA or software development. The reason I started this thread was to get a sense of whether or not it was a complete waste of effort to include software development in my job search given how rusty my developer skills are.
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You absolutely can do it! I did a similar thing, except that, as an electronics engineer I had to design and build all the hardware I programmed. Then peace broke out, that Wall came down, the Soviet Union collapsed and I was laid off from my job as a Project Engineer where I helped to defend the Free World from "rabid Comminests" by developing ever more powerful and accurate ICBMs. That was 1992. In 2005 I finally found a job again, the real kind. In the interim I fixed PCs, worked in a hardware store, and sold parts at a boat shop. I rewired the outlets in a bar once for beer, and fixed their CCTV system just because it was fun to do, and I got to sit upstairs with a bird's eye view on Ladies Pool Night. I stripped out and rebuilt the wiring in a lift truck for a guy who owned a sign shop for $40. I taught computer repair and business math at a local college. I even wrote a program in Paradox Application Language (PAL) for a relative who was running a MLM scam for a while. Then I found my current job, working for a tribal electric utility company despite having no experience in the power industry. They hired me to manage their computers and their customer database, but things snowballed and soon I was being asked to design underground residential and commercial distribution systems. Then they asked me to do a couple of substations for them, and I had to teach myself how to design with steel I-beams and concrete foundations, in addition to the electrical parts. Two years ago we took over operation of the water distribution and sewer collection and treatment operations, and I'm again called upon to update my skill set. I've designed sewer lines, water wells, pumping station control systems, and will soon be designing all the infrastructure for a new commercial complex for the tribe. Next week I have to finish up on a contract to build a new 69kV transmission line, then plan and manage the job. The timing of that is remarkable, as I just applied for admission to Grad School for a MS in Engineering, and the course I'll be taking first is Engineering Management. I'll probably be able to use the transmission line as my class project. Don't think for a minute that you can't do it. Yes, there will be challenges, but those only make you stronger if you embrace them as life lessons and use your head to discover the best way to overcome them. Lots of people will tell you good, logical reasons why you shouldn't try. But it's not their lives you want to live; listen and learn, for there may be some gems amongst the
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Patrick, I'd think you're a natural for a number of positions. Any outfit doing process control applications, real-time development, or embedded programming. Think of commercial applications, large machinery, and so on. Your QA background would be a plus. In my experience those sorts of projects don't get tested adequately, given the relative difficulty of instrumenting them for testing.
Software Zen:
delete this;