This is not right
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These were people living and working there LEGALLY - thats the point X| The tigress is here :D
Trollslayer wrote: These were people living and working there LEGALLY Actually, no. Read my reply to Jason below.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
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It's obscene! Why is this limited to Islamic visitors? Why not all of them? "INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes" So are many thousands, perhaps millions of illegal immigrants from other countries - they all should be rounded up without delay! This is intolerable behavior by the INS. Just because Islamic folks don't have a strong lobby in Congress the INS thinks they can get away with this travesty. The truly infuriating part of it is that they're right - they can get away with it, and by doing so can make themselves appear to be a model of efficiency, to be rewarded with more budget and authority later. :mad: If we are to be a society of law, then the law must apply equally to all - selective enforcement is a travesty! Better anarchy than the arbitrary and capricious exercise of authority by governments... "How many times do I have to flush before you go away?" - Megan Forbes, on Management (12/5/2002)
Roger Wright wrote: It's obscene! Why is this limited to Islamic visitors? Why not all of them? I tend to agree. But taking a deep breath I remembered a month or so ago the "News" show 60 minutes had a piece about how almost the same thing happened to hundreds of Mexican illegally in Salt Lake City last year but, there was no outrage like this. So perhaps (I Hope) it is not the case of selective enforcement but rather the result of the INS's limited resources. I do think it is sad but, eventually we all pay for our mistakes. I just hope each of the people are judged and tried on their own merit rather than a blanket policy. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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Too little information is nearly as bad as flat-out incorrect information. Read the story as reported by CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/19/attack/main533627.shtml[^] Also the FOX News description of some of the problems with the system: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73281,00.html[^] And an article about the budget problems the INS is facing, which could be contributing to some of the delays in processing reported to have caused some of the detainees to become illegal: http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-02/12-18-02/a01lo007.htm[^] Finally, lest anyone think we're rounding up Muslim citizens, clarification on *who* needs to register (taken from the first link above):
REGISTRATION REQUIRED Federal law requires males over age 16 to register with the INS if they hail from certain countries and are not U.S. citizens, permanent residents, green card holders, refugees or asylum seekers. Nationals of these five countries had to register by Dec. 16 if they had been in the country since Sept. 10: Iran Iraq Libya Sudan Syria Registration was also required by Jan. 10, 2003 for people who entered the United States before Oct. 1 of this year if they came from another 13 countries: Afghanistan Algeria Bahrain Eritrea Lebanon Morocco North Korea Oman Qatar Somalia Tunisia United Arab Emirates Yemen
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
Perhaps I jumped the gun a little on this one. I agree that illegals should not be hear and should be arrested. It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach just reading about all of these people who may have come here for a better life but are being detained because of bureaucratic snafus. The illegitimates need to go though.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Perhaps I jumped the gun a little on this one. I agree that illegals should not be hear and should be arrested. It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach just reading about all of these people who may have come here for a better life but are being detained because of bureaucratic snafus. The illegitimates need to go though.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach just reading about all of these people who may have come here for a better life but are being detained because of bureaucratic snafus. Well, there's a cause for you then. The INS is under-funded, under-staffed, over-worked, and has all the problems and inefficiencies you'd expect with a large bureacracy. And if that wasn't enough, they're being split up. Do a search for "immigrant" and "INS" on Google News & read some of the horror stories that pop up - there are problems aplenty.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
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Fazlul Kabir wrote: I've no problem with that if that was applied to illegal immigrants of all national origins. We have to start somewhere don't we? There has been an increase in Islamic terrorism lately so Islamic countries get targeted first. If non-terrorist Islamics want to blame anyone, I suggest they start with their terrorist bretheren and the governments who support them. The US is trying to protect itself and it's "legal" citizens. Why is this a bad thing? Are they being "heavy handed"? Maybe. Would you rather we ignore the problem? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
Mike Mullikin wrote: We have to start somewhere don't we? IMHO, the problem of illegal immigration isn't a recent phenomenon.
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Trollslayer wrote: These were people living and working there LEGALLY Actually, no. Read my reply to Jason below.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
Shog9 wrote: Actually, no I don't know your laws, you may enlighten me on this one: the CNN article says: "The men appear to have overstayed their visas, but according to the paper, some of those arrested have applied for green cards. One reported case involved a 16-year-old boy whose mother is a permanent resident and stepfather is a citizen. " Aren't people applying for a permanent visa "protected" till they don't get an answer from the Administration ? What will be the destiny of the 16 years old boy ? May he be expelled, when his parents are legally living in the US ?
One small village of indomitable geeks still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the managers legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Microsoftum, Javum, Ceplumplum and Vebasum
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Chris Losinger wrote: I simply feel that GWB is a danger to everything this country is supposed to be about. Like letting illegal aliens and criminals walk the street? I think your hate for Bush is clouding your judgement. Are you disgusted that these people were asked to register with the INS or that they were arrested for their crimes? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
If they truly committed a crime, then they should go through whatever process is in place for handling an immigrant (presumably not one who has been naturalized) who has committed a crime. If this means that they are put in jail, well OK, although I would presume some sort of fari trial, rights, etc. However if all that happened was there visa expired - I think just throwing them in jail is a bit extreme - surely there are better ways to handle this? Also the article mentions numbers between 500-1000? I find it a bit difficult to beleive that most of these people are all criminals in need of immediate detention. And if they are, why the hell didn;t the system pick them up earlier? ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire!
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&u=/nm/20021219/ts_nm/attack_immigration_dc_3&printer=1[^] I may be leaning more to Chris Losinger's point of view after reading this. If this keeps up, Bush will lose my vote to the Libertarians.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Don't blame Bush, this is the same idiot INS bureaucrats the Democrats didn't want him to be abnle to fire once transferred to Homeland Security. These are the same clowns that set Atta a visa 6 months after Sept. 11. As for the Libertarians, they lost my vote when they made Drug Legalization their only issue this past election... Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
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Shog9 wrote: Actually, no I don't know your laws, you may enlighten me on this one: the CNN article says: "The men appear to have overstayed their visas, but according to the paper, some of those arrested have applied for green cards. One reported case involved a 16-year-old boy whose mother is a permanent resident and stepfather is a citizen. " Aren't people applying for a permanent visa "protected" till they don't get an answer from the Administration ? What will be the destiny of the 16 years old boy ? May he be expelled, when his parents are legally living in the US ?
One small village of indomitable geeks still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the managers legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Microsoftum, Javum, Ceplumplum and Vebasum
KaЯl wrote: Aren't people applying for a permanent visa "protected" till they don't get an answer from the Administration ? KaЯl wrote: Aren't people applying for a permanent visa "protected" till they don't get an answer from the Administration ? The process of having a Green Card (permanent residency) is long and complicated one. An applicant has to go through several stages such as Labor Certification, Employment Authorization, Change of Status etc. However, while your application is being processed, according to INS, you're a legal alien. If you don't have an application being processed, you'll be called an illegal / undocumented alien. BTW, an immigration attorney would address this issue better.
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Jason Henderson wrote: It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach just reading about all of these people who may have come here for a better life but are being detained because of bureaucratic snafus. Well, there's a cause for you then. The INS is under-funded, under-staffed, over-worked, and has all the problems and inefficiencies you'd expect with a large bureacracy. And if that wasn't enough, they're being split up. Do a search for "immigrant" and "INS" on Google News & read some of the horror stories that pop up - there are problems aplenty.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
Come March 2003, INS going to be split up into 2 pieces. Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration (BCI) and Bureau of Transportation and Border Security they both work under new "Department of Homeland Security" I don't know this creates more headaches or better responsibility.. :~ http://www.ins.gov/graphics/homeland.htm[^] Kant Sonork-100.28114 Don't :beer: and Drive.
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Shog9 wrote: Actually, no I don't know your laws, you may enlighten me on this one: the CNN article says: "The men appear to have overstayed their visas, but according to the paper, some of those arrested have applied for green cards. One reported case involved a 16-year-old boy whose mother is a permanent resident and stepfather is a citizen. " Aren't people applying for a permanent visa "protected" till they don't get an answer from the Administration ? What will be the destiny of the 16 years old boy ? May he be expelled, when his parents are legally living in the US ?
One small village of indomitable geeks still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the managers legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Microsoftum, Javum, Ceplumplum and Vebasum
You need to learn how to read our news. Notice the terms "appear", "according to the paper", "some of those arrested", "reported case". All leave loopholes. They purposefully use this kind of language to bias the report in the direction they want. Being skeptical about governments (all governments) is good. It keeps them and us alert. I believe the same skepticism needs to be applied to mass media as well. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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Shog9 wrote: Actually, no I don't know your laws, you may enlighten me on this one: the CNN article says: "The men appear to have overstayed their visas, but according to the paper, some of those arrested have applied for green cards. One reported case involved a 16-year-old boy whose mother is a permanent resident and stepfather is a citizen. " Aren't people applying for a permanent visa "protected" till they don't get an answer from the Administration ? What will be the destiny of the 16 years old boy ? May he be expelled, when his parents are legally living in the US ?
One small village of indomitable geeks still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the managers legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Microsoftum, Javum, Ceplumplum and Vebasum
KaЯl wrote: Aren't people applying for a permanent visa "protected" till they don't get an answer from the Administration ? AFAIK, if you're already in on a temporary visa and have applied for an adjustment of status (to permanent visa), you're ok. But I Am Not A Lawyer, and I Am Not An Immigration Official - nor do i know the circumstances. KaЯl wrote: What will be the destiny of the 16 years old boy ? May he be expelled, when his parents are legally living in the US ? I'm not at all sure how that works. AFAIK, children under 21 can get a visa immediately so long as their parents are US citizens... but i do not know if this requires both parents, or just one. I have to wonder what's going on in this situation however, as if he'd already been issued a green card you wouldn't think he'd even need to register. Once again, there may be special circumstances here. Keep in mind also (as i mentioned in a previous post): the INS is undergoing some fairly major restructuring at present, and operating under quite a bit of pressure on top of that. Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity or carelessness.
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Shog9 Atheists are boring. They only talk about god. - peterchen, “Atheists are idiots”
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If they truly committed a crime, then they should go through whatever process is in place for handling an immigrant (presumably not one who has been naturalized) who has committed a crime. If this means that they are put in jail, well OK, although I would presume some sort of fari trial, rights, etc. However if all that happened was there visa expired - I think just throwing them in jail is a bit extreme - surely there are better ways to handle this? Also the article mentions numbers between 500-1000? I find it a bit difficult to beleive that most of these people are all criminals in need of immediate detention. And if they are, why the hell didn;t the system pick them up earlier? ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire!
Jim Crafton wrote: However if all that happened was there visa expired - I think just throwing them in jail is a bit extreme - surely there are better ways to handle this? Such as? They obviously have not concerned themselves with their own welfare or following the law. Jim Crafton wrote: Also the article mentions numbers between 500-1000? I find it a bit difficult to beleive that most of these people are all criminals in need of immediate detention. Why? Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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Mike Mullikin wrote: We have to start somewhere don't we? IMHO, the problem of illegal immigration isn't a recent phenomenon.
Fazlul Kabir wrote: IMHO, the problem of illegal immigration isn't a recent phenomenon. True, but then again hijacking jumbo jets and flying them into crowded skyscrapers is. :| Times change and there are consequences for every action. Sometimes the innocent get caught up in the solution. Unfortunate but also nothing new. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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You need to learn how to read our news. Notice the terms "appear", "according to the paper", "some of those arrested", "reported case". All leave loopholes. They purposefully use this kind of language to bias the report in the direction they want. Being skeptical about governments (all governments) is good. It keeps them and us alert. I believe the same skepticism needs to be applied to mass media as well. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
Mike Mullikin wrote: I believe the same skepticism needs to be applied to mass media as well I believe the same, that's why when I read a disturbing news somewhere, I jump in the Lounge or the Soapbox following the topic. I'm sure to have here a wide spectrum of opinions and comments :) Mike Mullikin wrote: All leave loopholes Do you think CNN makes an interpretation of the facts or straightforwardly invents some of them ?
One small village of indomitable geeks still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the managers legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Microsoftum, Javum, Ceplumplum and Vebasum
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wow, GWB and pals never cease to disgust me. Jason Henderson wrote: may be leaning more to Chris Losinger's point of view after reading this give in to the dark side. :suss: but seriously, i simply feel that GWB is a danger to everything this country is supposed to be about. -c
With respect, it seems to me that much of the actual system in the US is a danger to what the US is *supposed* to be about. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Mike Mullikin wrote: I believe the same skepticism needs to be applied to mass media as well I believe the same, that's why when I read a disturbing news somewhere, I jump in the Lounge or the Soapbox following the topic. I'm sure to have here a wide spectrum of opinions and comments :) Mike Mullikin wrote: All leave loopholes Do you think CNN makes an interpretation of the facts or straightforwardly invents some of them ?
One small village of indomitable geeks still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the managers legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Microsoftum, Javum, Ceplumplum and Vebasum
KaЯl wrote: Do you think CNN makes an interpretation of the facts or straightforwardly invents some of them ? No, I don't think CNN is inventing "facts". But they want good ratings (so they can sell more advertising) and love sensational stories. Their news writers can stress the points they want to stress and gloss over the points they want to gloss over. That story was written from the perspective that all of those people who were detained or arrested are saints and that the INS/US Government are the gestapo. It simply wasn't balanced reporting IMO. Much of the mass media cater to the left. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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With respect, it seems to me that much of the actual system in the US is a danger to what the US is *supposed* to be about. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: what the US is *supposed* to be about. I think a lot of people have a distorted view of what the US is supposed to be about. The US is a country not unlike many other countries. It's not perfect, but it's better than many. Mistakes are made, sometimes twice. Lessons are learned, sometimes the hard way. Sometimes we push too hard, sometimes not enough. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
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With respect, it seems to me that much of the actual system in the US is a danger to what the US is *supposed* to be about. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Not true, Christian. I suggest you come here and find out.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
KaЯl wrote: Do you think CNN makes an interpretation of the facts or straightforwardly invents some of them ? No, I don't think CNN is inventing "facts". But they want good ratings (so they can sell more advertising) and love sensational stories. Their news writers can stress the points they want to stress and gloss over the points they want to gloss over. That story was written from the perspective that all of those people who were detained or arrested are saints and that the INS/US Government are the gestapo. It simply wasn't balanced reporting IMO. Much of the mass media cater to the left. Mike Mullikin :beer:
The goal of any programmer is to build something that will last at least until he's finished building it. - - Anonymous
Mike Mullikin wrote: But they want good ratings (so they can sell more advertising) and love sensational stories Same here. Mike Mullikin wrote: Much of the mass media cater to the left. Seen, of course, from an impartial point of view ;P
One small village of indomitable geeks still holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the managers legionaries who garrison the fortified camps of Microsoftum, Javum, Ceplumplum and Vebasum