F. Progress...
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
I once heard someone also say, "You're only as good as your last pay cheque." :) You can't eat a press and a nail is hardly the stuff good meals are made from. Your boss might not be the brightest brass button on the jacket but humour him. I'm sure other opportunities will open up. It can be frustrating, I know - we've all been there - but such is the way of things. The Dilbert Principle[^] may answer your dilemma. :-D
"I do not have to forgive my enemies, I have had them all shot." — Ramón Maria Narváez (1800-68). "I don't need to shoot my enemies, I don't have any." - Me (2012).
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...and thence came haters... :) Note to you - my client made 0 investments into the WebForms. And to start today with webforms in developing a public website that's supposed to scale, and to be a new business direction, is a dumb-dumb idea. I developed in webforms for a few years before i started with MVC, so you won't sell this crap to me again. Eating up traffic on constant swaps of view state between client and server - no, thank you.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
Eating up traffic on constant swaps of view state between client and server - no, thank you.
That's the major problem with WebForms - developers who just use the VS designers and don't bother to optimise the code. There is a hint: you can turn it off and use it only on the controls you need... ;)
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Apparently you are the dumb one to castigate and ignore a perfectly good technology which, if used properly, is every bit as good as MVC. Here is a reasonable take: ASP.NET MVC v. Web Forms Debate - My View[^] One major point (that is nothing to do with which is better or worse) is that many companies, both large and small, have invested time and money into web forms applications and are not going to throw that away just because some people like MVC as the flavor of the month. There is more to professional development than latching onto an idea and then being so blinded by how 'wonderful' it is that you dismiss anything else as worthless. This is the same argument that evangelists use to denigrate VB.Net. It's a tool, nothing more and, if it fits your needs, whatever the reason is (it's your reason and money so it's valid for you), then use it and ignore all the fools trying to sell you the emperor's new clothes.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Web forms is a huge horrible mess, and while there is a good argument for keeping an existing site going using it, for a new start MVC is better in pretty much every way. That blog you linked to pretty much agrees that web forms is rubbish, but because of inertia it can make sense to still use it – but that's not the case with a fresh start.
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I agree completely. As a consultant, it is your job to recommend the best solution possible but in the end, it is the customer's decision which direction to go in. I've been on both sides of that situation. As a customer, I've had to specify how I wanted certain systems developed. I would listen to my consultants, but in the end, if they didn't do what I want, I replaced them. It was my job to do what was best for my company and I was responsible for that. As a consultant, I've had my suggestions overridden (going through that now, actually). I make sure my views are clearly stated and I also make sure the customer knows why I recommend a certain way over another way. That way, if things don't work out well, I can tactfully point to my earlier recommendations that were ignored. That keeps the blame on the customer. However, I work for the customer. If I don't want to do what they want me to do, I don't take the job. If I agree to the job, I do what they want. It is as simple as that.
Yes, exactly. Make sure it's on record that you recommended MVC, and that you said it would cost less if done in MVC because the development is easier and quicker. Then, if they insist on using inferior technology (and agree to the extra cost of using it), roll your eyes and do the work; working for the same rate for longer is good for your bank balance, after all. Keeping a record of your recommendation allows you to dodge blame when someone asks why Web Forms were used. Your job as a consultant is to advise the client, not dictate to them, and if they want something, it's your job to give them that.
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I have been developing in ASP.NET MVC since version 2, and now in 4, and was so happy about it, never looked back at WebForms. And now, my new client is insisting that I use WebForms for their brand new public website :omg: I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad: Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period. The things us poor developers have to do for money... X| In Russia we say: Who uses a press iron to hammer a nail?
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
A major point here is the four-score-years-and-ten argument. If coding in MS BASIC is what pays for your home and your family to have some happy times, then just bluddy well get on with it and stop bitching.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Your notion of smart seems dubious. I want to do what I believe is right, both technologically and morally. I do not want to screw up the client and do it just for money. And no, the customer isn't asking to rewrite anything, he asked for a brand new product, a new public website, from A to Z.
Let's agree to disagree! Boris the animal Just Boris.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
Your notion of smart seems dubious.
As pointed out by others you have an opinion about the correctness of one solution. Now even if you have objective data about that correctness I seriously doubt that it would provide a significant factor in the decision. And I suspect it is almost impossible that your preference would be a win in all possible categories.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
I want to do what I believe is right, both technologically and morally. I do not want to screw up the client and do it just for money.
So what objective evidence do you have that your decision is correct for this customer.
Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
And no, the customer isn't asking to rewrite anything, he asked for a brand new product, a new public website, from A to Z
Irrelevant in terms of my original point. The real point is whether they are willing to pay for it and whether any other demands are reasonable in the business sense.
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Vitaly Tomilov wrote:
I tried to approach them several times, explaining how wrong that is to even consider something like this, and how WebForms are inferior to MVC, but it all fell on deaf years :mad:
Their boss is just too dumb. Apparently, he heard the word WebForms before, and never MVC, and my arguments to him were nothing, he only accepts the idea of him being right, period.It all depends on how you phrase it. If your argument was purely technical, then you shouldn't be surprised if they weren't receptive. You need to streess things such as increased Return On Investment, lowered operating costs, decreased support costs and the opportunities for enhancement (and I'm not talking about the dodgy spam email type of enhancement). You have to learn how to phrase things to the client, and not to try to dictate to them. It could be that the client views WebForms as having longevity, and is concerned about the possibility of MS dropping MVC. Given their recent showing with dropping tech stacks at the drop of a hat, I wouldn't be surprised if your client was worried.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
You need to streess things such as increased Return On Investment, lowered operating costs, decreased support costs and the opportunities for enhancement (and I'm not talking about the dodgy spam email type of enhancement). You have to learn how to phrase things to the client, and not to try to dictate to them.
I suspect you want to be careful how you phrase that however. If the customer picks a solution based on the contractors specific comments on ROI (for example) then it is possible that actionable terms could exist if that perceived ROI does not materialize.