Creative pro-choice message
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Jason Henderson wrote: Late term abortions are not illegal. Well, that is a good example of society 'righting' one wrong with a worse one. Any abortion in the third trimester is most certainly the taking of a life, no different to a newborn. Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? So again, when your 12 year old daughter is three weeks pregnant, having been beaten and raped by someone she trusted, and the baby is simply a collection of cells, madly duplicating, but still without form or sentience, you'd look her in the eye and say 'your dreams are gone, you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker' ??? ( See, I can do the emotional argument thing quite well, doncha think ? :P ) Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002We can't make decisions without emotion Christian, we're human.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I'm not trying to be emotional. By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. The question really hinges on the fetus being human. All humans have a right to live. If the fetus is human, then the fetus has a right to live. This right to live is irrespective of issues of economics or convenience. If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide.
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Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *I dunno why someone gave you a 1. I do think this is a silly point of view though. It's basically the 'sweep it under the carpet' approach. I know kids who have been adopted, my mother being one. Every one I know is screwed up by it. And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt, so that there are not enough babies to go around. People who try to cut corners do it because of the wait, not supply and demand. Jason Henderson wrote: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. I doubt it. It's tragic to think of couples who simply cannot have kids, and want them. We know some people in that boat. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
We can't make decisions without emotion Christian, we're human.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *True, we are emotional, and we should certainly listen to our feelings before making these sort of big decisions, logic alone does not cut it. But that's no excuse to throw logic out the window and trust our feelings alone. We can make a case for any point of view that way, and be swung by it in the heat of the moment. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
I dunno why someone gave you a 1. I do think this is a silly point of view though. It's basically the 'sweep it under the carpet' approach. I know kids who have been adopted, my mother being one. Every one I know is screwed up by it. And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt, so that there are not enough babies to go around. People who try to cut corners do it because of the wait, not supply and demand. Jason Henderson wrote: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. I doubt it. It's tragic to think of couples who simply cannot have kids, and want them. We know some people in that boat. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: I dunno why someone gave you a 1. That's alright, I deserved it. Christian Graus wrote: And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt Maybe not, but for some reason its easier for a crack whore to have a baby and throw it in the dumpster than it is for a family who wants kids to adopt. It makes no sense.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I'm not trying to be emotional. By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. The question really hinges on the fetus being human. All humans have a right to live. If the fetus is human, then the fetus has a right to live. This right to live is irrespective of issues of economics or convenience. If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide.
Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: I dunno why someone gave you a 1. That's alright, I deserved it. Christian Graus wrote: And I don't believe there is this huge body of people waiting to adopt Maybe not, but for some reason its easier for a crack whore to have a baby and throw it in the dumpster than it is for a family who wants kids to adopt. It makes no sense.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: some reason its easier for a crack whore to have a baby and throw it in the dumpster than it is for a family who wants kids to adopt. It makes no sense. It's not fair, but it makes perfect sense. Most crack whores are by definition having sex and capable of bearing young. When a couple adopts, the government is involved and must make sure they do not give a child to a couple who will mistreat it. Personally, I think they should put the pill in the water, and instead of buying drugs to stop pregnancy, you need to buy ones to counteract the water, after passing several tests to prove you're going to create something we want in our society. Nothing to do with race, religion, politics or money. Just that you intend to love the child and raise them to become responsible adults. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. It's not an emotional based argument. It's a rule based argument. One either accepts or rejects the rule. If you accept the rule, then a class of lesser humans is created. If you reject the rule, then you declare that all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. I'm sorry, but adding economics and convenience to this discussion does imply that some people have more of a right to live than others. I understand it's not your intention to designate a lesser human class, but that is what you have done. Human life is human life. Every human life no matter its state is worthy of living. The question centers around whether the fetus is human life or not. Whether an individual grows up in poverty or prosperity does not matter, all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? 1. One human can not take the life of another human. If the fetus is human, then the mother is disallowed from taking the life of the fetus. 2,3. The question centers around what is human life. No one believes that sperm and egg by themselves are human life. Because they're not human life, the individual sperm and egg have no rights. Christian Graus wrote: It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Whether a fetus is human, is not a question for which I have answered. I choose not to pro
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Christian Graus wrote: Clearly, no abortion law allows you to kill a child about to be born Oh really? Late term abortions are not illegal. Christian Graus wrote: Why should she be forced to bear the child of her attacker ? So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another?
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? Your a fuckwit. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: you need to spend your life bearing and raising the child of your attacker There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: Maybe by then we can perform baby transplants to mothers that want children. :((
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: There are thousands of people who want to adopt, so she wouldn't have to raise the child. :confused: But she still has to carry the baby for 9 odd months and then it cut out of her or actuallyu give birth to it. It's hard enough for women (not girls) who want kids to go through the childbirth thing. Forget forcing someone young or not to have a baby they didn't want and weren't even having the fun that can result in babies. Apologies for for previous reply to an earlier message of yours. I have very strong views on rape and molestations that haven't been formed from reading. At times I explode into a reply from a post or snippet of a conversation without taking the time to get the whole picture. A perfect example you have just experienced. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Congratulations, you at least present the case in a logical manner. As I said to Jason, I oppose abortion personally, but it's just not that black and white an issue. There are instances where it is the best option, and the needs of the mother outweigh the needs of the unborn child, especially in the first few weeks where there is simply no brain to *be* conscious of anything going on. The trouble is that it's too easy to get emotional about kids ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ). That does not change reality. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but making it illegal does not solve the problem, and there are cases where it is an option that should be pursued almost as a given, unless the mother personally feels otherwise. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ) I actually scare myself at times with the abject anger, hatred and thoughts I have of what I would do to them if I caught them. The scariest part is I know I would snap and do it, without thought or reasoning of 'I have kids now and need to be responsible'. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: How about the life of the mother ? This is the only relevant thing for anyone to be arguing about at this stage. There is no baby, there is no fetous, there is only a collection of cells. In your scenario the 12 year old is completely fucked up in the head. More than likely has never had sex and didn't even contemplate having it yet. Then she is beaten and fucked. Mentally and physically she is a mess. Years to fix that alone. Now comes along Mr Moral Majority who says, 'Hey, guess what? You get to carry the baby for 9 months and give birth to it.'. I wish he got to undergo a large dose of Boola-Boola from cousins all named Bubba. Then I would like a large watermelon be inserted into his body. Then 9 months later he has to pass it through his arsehole. I told you I have fucked up thoughts on stuff like this. Personally I would settle for a set of leather gloves and beat the shit out of him for hours like in one of the Dirty Harry movies. Then a case of progressive circumcision using a potato peeler. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. It's not an emotional based argument. It's a rule based argument. One either accepts or rejects the rule. If you accept the rule, then a class of lesser humans is created. If you reject the rule, then you declare that all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. I'm sorry, but adding economics and convenience to this discussion does imply that some people have more of a right to live than others. I understand it's not your intention to designate a lesser human class, but that is what you have done. Human life is human life. Every human life no matter its state is worthy of living. The question centers around whether the fetus is human life or not. Whether an individual grows up in poverty or prosperity does not matter, all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? 1. One human can not take the life of another human. If the fetus is human, then the mother is disallowed from taking the life of the fetus. 2,3. The question centers around what is human life. No one believes that sperm and egg by themselves are human life. Because they're not human life, the individual sperm and egg have no rights. Christian Graus wrote: It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Whether a fetus is human, is not a question for which I have answered. I choose not to pro
Emcee Lam wrote: It's not an emotional based argument. Yes it is, because *I* *did* *not* *say* *that*. Emcee Lam wrote: adding economics and convenience to this discussion My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. Emcee Lam wrote: I choose not to provide an answer to that question, for now. Your position is clear based on your arguments. Emcee Lam wrote: Abortion is not a cure all. You must be joking. Emcee Lam wrote: The physical intrusion of rape is repeated once again in the abortion procedure. You're still joking, surely ? You can make that decision on behalf of my 12 year old daughter and enshrine it in law ? Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ) I actually scare myself at times with the abject anger, hatred and thoughts I have of what I would do to them if I caught them. The scariest part is I know I would snap and do it, without thought or reasoning of 'I have kids now and need to be responsible'. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
I know what you mean. Being able to forgive is a pretty central tenet of my life, and I honestly don't know how I would manage it if my children came to harm. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: How about the life of the mother ? This is the only relevant thing for anyone to be arguing about at this stage. There is no baby, there is no fetous, there is only a collection of cells. In your scenario the 12 year old is completely fucked up in the head. More than likely has never had sex and didn't even contemplate having it yet. Then she is beaten and fucked. Mentally and physically she is a mess. Years to fix that alone. Now comes along Mr Moral Majority who says, 'Hey, guess what? You get to carry the baby for 9 months and give birth to it.'. I wish he got to undergo a large dose of Boola-Boola from cousins all named Bubba. Then I would like a large watermelon be inserted into his body. Then 9 months later he has to pass it through his arsehole. I told you I have fucked up thoughts on stuff like this. Personally I would settle for a set of leather gloves and beat the shit out of him for hours like in one of the Dirty Harry movies. Then a case of progressive circumcision using a potato peeler. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Years to fix that alone. Yes, exactly. In this case, SHE is the child who has come to harm. Why compound it ? BTW this example is real, it happened in Ireland in the 80's ( although I may have the age wrong ). The girl was ostracised by half the country and had to go to England to get an abortion. She found going home unviable with the vitriol being poured on her. How the HELL could those people judge her, or even try to understand what she was going through ? Michael Martin wrote: I told you I have f***ed up thoughts on stuff like this. While I'm not sure I would have worded it the same way, I certainly agree with you. Nothing annoys me more than people in glass houses telling people suffer for what they think is right. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? Your a fuckwit. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
If I'm one then so is half of the rest of the world who opposes abortion. I realize that it would be difficult for a young girl, but 9 months is not a long time. They may not understand at a young age, but wouldn't it be better to not destroy the baby? It won't ruin their lives to have the baby then give it to the state. If it means I'm a f***wit thinking this way then so be it. I'll defend the lives of children any day.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: It's not an emotional based argument. Yes it is, because *I* *did* *not* *say* *that*. Emcee Lam wrote: adding economics and convenience to this discussion My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. Emcee Lam wrote: I choose not to provide an answer to that question, for now. Your position is clear based on your arguments. Emcee Lam wrote: Abortion is not a cure all. You must be joking. Emcee Lam wrote: The physical intrusion of rape is repeated once again in the abortion procedure. You're still joking, surely ? You can make that decision on behalf of my 12 year old daughter and enshrine it in law ? Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. What you call your core argument is not your core argument. This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. From this, you generate all your other statements. If the fetus is not human, then the mother has complete authority to do what she wishes with the fetus. The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters is because you take it as a general truth that the fetus is not a human life. You speak of every extended issue, but you miss the original question of whether the fetus is human. That original question will resolve all the other questions. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. No, this is quite plausible what I have said, and it has happened. Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. Rape victims who believe the fetus to be a human life will suffer additional distress if the fetus is aborted.
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Christian Graus wrote: My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. What you call your core argument is not your core argument. This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. From this, you generate all your other statements. If the fetus is not human, then the mother has complete authority to do what she wishes with the fetus. The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters is because you take it as a general truth that the fetus is not a human life. You speak of every extended issue, but you miss the original question of whether the fetus is human. That original question will resolve all the other questions. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. No, this is quite plausible what I have said, and it has happened. Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. Rape victims who believe the fetus to be a human life will suffer additional distress if the fetus is aborted.
Emcee Lam wrote: This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. Goodness me. I'm sorry, but I never said that. I said that in the first weeks of conception that is arguably the case. Emcee Lam wrote: The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters Is that they are to a person too stupid to even consider the logical facts I place before them. I am ANTI-abortion, I simply question your right to tell other people what to do, and when I speak of a child who is raped ( it really happened BTW ), and you come back with the waffle you came back last time, it's easy to see that you have no ability to see things from the POV of people who live in the real world. Emcee Lam wrote: Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. This is SO frustrating. All I am saying is that the mother have the right to choose. You want to take that right away by legislation. you can't answer my question, obviously. Would you really look a 12 year old pregnant girl who has been beaten and raped in the eye and tell her that because 'not every rape victim' blah blah blah, that gives you the right to legislate so EVERY rape victim must have the child ? I'm talking freedom of choice, you're talking telling people who have suffered enough that they must suffer more because of your opinions. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Emcee Lam wrote: This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. Goodness me. I'm sorry, but I never said that. I said that in the first weeks of conception that is arguably the case. Emcee Lam wrote: The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters Is that they are to a person too stupid to even consider the logical facts I place before them. I am ANTI-abortion, I simply question your right to tell other people what to do, and when I speak of a child who is raped ( it really happened BTW ), and you come back with the waffle you came back last time, it's easy to see that you have no ability to see things from the POV of people who live in the real world. Emcee Lam wrote: Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. This is SO frustrating. All I am saying is that the mother have the right to choose. You want to take that right away by legislation. you can't answer my question, obviously. Would you really look a 12 year old pregnant girl who has been beaten and raped in the eye and tell her that because 'not every rape victim' blah blah blah, that gives you the right to legislate so EVERY rape victim must have the child ? I'm talking freedom of choice, you're talking telling people who have suffered enough that they must suffer more because of your opinions. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: This is SO frustrating. All I am saying is that the mother have the right to choose. Then so be it. In this current age, the mother must choose. But if the mother chooses, let the mother struggle with the question of whether the fetus is human or not. A mother should be equipped with all information so as to choose between yay or nay. A mother should be aware that if the fetus is human, then there are grave consequences. If the fetus is not human, then one can live in peace. What can not be allowed is a decision based on no thinking. A mother must learn the reasoning behind the pro and the anti. There is intellectual thinking for and against. This must be digested and a decision made. Failure to make an informed decision could result in great distress later. A woman with an abortion may later conclude she aborted a human. This can result in imaginations of the what-if appearance of her baby if the baby wasn't aborted. A woman can be haunted by images of yearly changes in height of an imaginary what-if child. Do you think I am making this up? I am not. Women of regret do exist, and they can tell stories of their post-abortion distress. Not all women are happy customers, and any woman considering abortion should know about the stories of unhappy customers. Even though we disagree on many points, I hope that we can at least agree on the notion of the informed decision. Christian Graus wrote: You want to take that right away by legislation. This current political climate is unacceptable for legislating away abortion, and I will hold my tongue on this topic.