Is Dawkins Right?
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
religious idiots will just ignore it and go away.
:omg: That's slanderous I'm just an Idiot :-D
Every day, thousands of innocent plants are killed by vegetarians. Help end the violence EAT BACON
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Statistically speaking: 1. If god exists: a. the the believers have 50% to get to heaven. b. the non-believers have 0%. 2. If god does not exist: - Both have 0% to get to heaven. If is was suitcases and money what would you choose?
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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That's great. By that same logic, you'd better worship the Greek and Roman gods too, and the Norse gods, the Hindu gods, etc.. Just in case any of them exist.
By Thor, I think you're right.
Chill _Maxxx_
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier -
Statistically speaking: 1. If god exists: a. the the believers have 50% to get to heaven. b. the non-believers have 0%. 2. If god does not exist: - Both have 0% to get to heaven. If is was suitcases and money what would you choose?
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
IIRC that was Blaise Pascals answer to the inquisition (no not the Spanish one, no one would have expected that) So what happens if you add some more religions and hell to that equation?
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES! Abraham Lincoln
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IIRC that was Blaise Pascals answer to the inquisition (no not the Spanish one, no one would have expected that) So what happens if you add some more religions and hell to that equation?
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES! Abraham Lincoln
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From 'Posting Rules for the Lounge': 4. No politics (including enviro-politics[^]), no sex, no religion. This is a community for software development. There are plenty of other sites that are far more appropriate for these discussions. Or if you must, use the Back Room[^] - but enter at your own risk.
If he had bothered with rule 4 he would have noticed it's a repost.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES! Abraham Lincoln
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No, the egregious professor for the public misunderstanding of science is not right. He is seldom, if ever right. I'm not getting involved in the detail or a flame war but suffice it to say that even the secularists have disowned him as a religious zealot. On that at least, they are right.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Dawkins is more irritating than almost any religionist. Basically IMHO now, he is wrong, regardless of what it is he says, and regardless of how readily I might agree with it had it been said by someone else.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks
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Maimonides wrote:
You can believe or not but it is sure foolish to think that your choice of the two is backed up with any scientific finding or that it is smarter to think one way or the other.
Well actually.. No, of course science doesn't prove that there is no god. It doesn't have to. Science does not (so far) use any deities to explain known phenomena, so there is no good reason (for some suitable definition of "good reason") to assume any deity exists. Believing something for bad reasons is not a very smart thing to do. That doesn't actually mean that religious people are stupid. In my experience, they tend to be selectively stupid - usually smart, and suddenly willfully stupid when it comes to religion. They believe in god not because evidence convinced them that god exists, but just because they want to, and they'll make up some random reasons when pressed. </foolish>
Science explains HOW the plain flies from A to B, it does not and cannot explain WHY it flies from A to B. Psychologists have attempted to explain but since the suicide rate at their communities is so high they never really get anywhere... :sigh:
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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Just looking at the graph: No IQ above 110 is recorded, but the IQs down to 64-ish are. The data set is from slightly above average to mildly retarded (taking IQ of 70 as the limit). Possibly there are selection factors at work, such as people in the lower IQ ranges coming from families where a physical defect may have result aborted in other circumstances, but this being against the parent's religious beliefs. It is also possible that come of this group of people use religion as an emotional crutch if they have other difficulties. Actually what is shown in the graph is people just below average intelligence tend to be religionists, those with low IQs tend to believe. We also have a case of correlation != causation, but I've seen this exact bit of research mentioned elsewhere, normally (but not in this case) in the context of someone thinking this shows their intellectual superiority. Reviewed another way, this could indicate a herd mentality where slightly below-average people, who don't/can't think these things through for themselves follow atheism, because a group of vocal clever people (who have thought this through) provide them with ready-to-regurgitate arguments which make them seem cleverer. Note the arguments aren't necessarily wrong in themselves, it's more the herd-ism I'm having a go at. I guess this is a kind of conformist non-conformism mentioned in the article. It'd be interesting to see the study carried further up the IQ scale. One (though I'd guess incorrect) interpretation of the graph is as a bell-curve pretty much centred on average IQ. My actual guess is that further up the IQ chain you'd start to see a polarisation of views. At uni I knew plenty of physicists and mathematicians (amongst the staff) who were regular churchgoers. Conversely, the college chaplain (also very bright, he'd been a high-end statistician and took a doctorate in Philosophy before entering the clergy) used to have more time for atheists who'd actually reasoned out why they were atheists than students who'd basically carried their religious beliefs unthinkingly from their family. In the upper echelons of the CoE this is surprisingly common. It'd also be interesting to see this research applied to different cultures as pointed out in the caveats.
PB 369,783 wrote:
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I hear your point Nicholas, though: The Christian church may have been proven wrong, but that does not shed any light on the existence of god question. Another interesting thing to notice is that there are quite a number of prophecies in the old testimony which (up to now as far as I know) have stood their ground completely, which I must say, is quite amazing for a book 3,300 years old (roughly). Further more, around 95% of History's top scientists believed in god. You can believe or not but it is sure foolish to think that your choice of the two is backed up with any scientific finding or that it is smarter to think one way or the other.
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
Please take no offense from the following. I'm merely playing a bit the devil's advocate (how does it come so much of these idioms are based on religion :laugh:) albeit I can stand behind some of those points.
Maimonides wrote:
The Christian church may have been proven wrong, but that does not shed any light on the existence of god question.
I'm not sure if get what you meant with that sentence. So... How do you disprove something which does not exist? (You can't. So as you can't disprove the existence of unicorns because you just haven't seen one yet does not mean there isn't one somewhere. That's exactly an argument I hear sometimes as an argument for the existence of god.) So talking about the existence of god is for nothing. Atheits believe there is none, all others believe there is (at least) one. Sure, there have happened things which science can't explain, but I say science just can't explain them yet. ;)
Maimonides wrote:
Another interesting thing to notice is that there are quite a number of prophecies in the old testimony which (up to now as far as I know) have stood their ground completely
Not having read in the bible for more than 5 years: Which ones would that be? :) I don't remember prophecies. I remember some different things happening. A lot of description. Like one of todays Fantasy novels (only not that interesting for me) ;)
Maimonides wrote:
Further more, around 95% of History's top scientists believed in god.
That might be true (I did not check that number). But until a few years (or decades) past you were a complete outsider as an atheist. (and even killed). You also wouldn't want to be shunned by a whole village, city or event country. However, there is no way to find those that did not believe in god ;). So telling everybody that you believe in god (even if you don't) lets you have a way more easier life than if you say that you do not. (It's like someone asks you "How are you?" and you answer "Fine and you?" instead of telling them all your problems so they stop bugging you about it ;))
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Science explains HOW the plain flies from A to B, it does not and cannot explain WHY it flies from A to B. Psychologists have attempted to explain but since the suicide rate at their communities is so high they never really get anywhere... :sigh:
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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Science explains HOW the plain flies from A to B, it does not and cannot explain WHY it flies from A to B. Psychologists have attempted to explain but since the suicide rate at their communities is so high they never really get anywhere... :sigh:
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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Please take no offense from the following. I'm merely playing a bit the devil's advocate (how does it come so much of these idioms are based on religion :laugh:) albeit I can stand behind some of those points.
Maimonides wrote:
The Christian church may have been proven wrong, but that does not shed any light on the existence of god question.
I'm not sure if get what you meant with that sentence. So... How do you disprove something which does not exist? (You can't. So as you can't disprove the existence of unicorns because you just haven't seen one yet does not mean there isn't one somewhere. That's exactly an argument I hear sometimes as an argument for the existence of god.) So talking about the existence of god is for nothing. Atheits believe there is none, all others believe there is (at least) one. Sure, there have happened things which science can't explain, but I say science just can't explain them yet. ;)
Maimonides wrote:
Another interesting thing to notice is that there are quite a number of prophecies in the old testimony which (up to now as far as I know) have stood their ground completely
Not having read in the bible for more than 5 years: Which ones would that be? :) I don't remember prophecies. I remember some different things happening. A lot of description. Like one of todays Fantasy novels (only not that interesting for me) ;)
Maimonides wrote:
Further more, around 95% of History's top scientists believed in god.
That might be true (I did not check that number). But until a few years (or decades) past you were a complete outsider as an atheist. (and even killed). You also wouldn't want to be shunned by a whole village, city or event country. However, there is no way to find those that did not believe in god ;). So telling everybody that you believe in god (even if you don't) lets you have a way more easier life than if you say that you do not. (It's like someone asks you "How are you?" and you answer "Fine and you?" instead of telling them all your problems so they stop bugging you about it ;))
- You are definitely a nice secular chap Nicholas, how can someone be offended by you? - Many things that do not exist can be proven not to exist, by contradiction [^] - E.G. there was a prophecy that Babylon, once destroyed will never be built again. Now, this prophecy, hold till now. And many (along some 2,300 years!), have tried rebuilding it, one of which was the late Saddam Hussein. It still lays in ruins. You are welcome to try building it, to prove the prophecy wrong. - I guess I am the outsider now (look at all the hostile posts) :sigh:
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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Statistically speaking: 1. If god exists: a. the the believers have 50% to get to heaven. b. the non-believers have 0%. 2. If god does not exist: - Both have 0% to get to heaven. If is was suitcases and money what would you choose?
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
2. if god does not exist: nobody goes to hell, you just cease to be ;) If you led a good or a bad life you'll see when you get old (good when you're loved by family and friends, bad when you're going to die alone). Do that what you do for life, not for death and an at best unsure afterlife.
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Maimonides wrote:
it does not and cannot explain WHY it flies from A to B
What's so hard about that? Go ask the owner why they sent it to B. Maybe to bring something. Maybe to pick something up. Probably both, because flying empty is a waste of money.
Go and ask the owner of the world ... let me know the answer (how quick will a 42 reply come?)
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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Statistically speaking: 1. If god exists: a. the the believers have 50% to get to heaven. b. the non-believers have 0%. 2. If god does not exist: - Both have 0% to get to heaven. If is was suitcases and money what would you choose?
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
That presumes the existence of heaven, that the person continues in some form after death and that god will send that person to heaven for believing. As a catholic Descartes's reasoning is good, but to non-catholics the above points make it flawed. An antithesis to the wager, form an atheist perspective: Assume god does not exist: There is no afterlife or heaven. Believer: spends time and effort (and normally limit behaviour) in their only life* Non-Beleiver: Can live without the restrictions imposed by religion ** You know you have this life/existence (ironically, according to Descartes, the one thing you can know). The believer wastes at least a portion of their life on their beliefs, but this is an unbelievably precious resource. In the atheist scheme, this is a bet they won't win. *This is the effective result of most religions. ** Note that this does not imply a better or happier life however.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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Go and ask the owner of the world ... let me know the answer (how quick will a 42 reply come?)
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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2. if god does not exist: nobody goes to hell, you just cease to be ;) If you led a good or a bad life you'll see when you get old (good when you're loved by family and friends, bad when you're going to die alone). Do that what you do for life, not for death and an at best unsure afterlife.
You are right of course. I find it somewhat sad that someone thinks that all that defines his existence, is his body...
It is a paradox that paradoxes would actually exist in reality. That means of course that they don't exist. However, they do!
∫(Edo)dx = Tzumer ∑k(this.Kid)k = this.♥
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Maimonides wrote:
explains HOW the plain flies
The rane in Spane falls manely on the plane.
“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks