Is "programming" a dirty word, suddenly?
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This smells too much of marketing efforts. My guess is that this has something to do with the fact that you want a shallow description to separate the good from the bad/ugly. Meaning that the ones that cant use google or doesn't know anybody that works on code, would blurp out programmer instead of engineer or coder? I wouldn't be surprised if it was :laugh:
No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I was worked with some glass lickers who thought calling themselves Software Developers was the answer. They'd explain this by saying software developers went beyond programmers by: [list of tasks you do in programming]. I'd point out that's exactly what programmers do. They'd get angry. Loop.
Play my game Gravity: Android[^], Windows Phone 7[^]
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Dan Sutton wrote:
More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing,
To me, I don't like the term code monkey. That's menial, like I'm brainless. Anything else I can live with.
Dan Sutton wrote:
It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
It's because the industry is a lot more blurred now in what we do. Back in the day we didn't have as many roles like QAs, BSAs, et al sticking their hand in the development pot. As the industry got more complex and more titles hopped on board, we're no longer the end all be all to development. But that shouldn't make you feel bad, it just means we also have to broaden our horizons and continue to grow with the industry. Guys like us started our work lives with a very fresh and new industry around the dot com boom. That doesn't happen too often, especially on the magnitude of something globe changing like the Internet. Dilution of one single role is what happens with any industry that starts maturing.
Jeremy Falcon
I much to prefer going by software developer or software architect since it to me gives more meaning of developing new ideas/products, or being the architect behind a software tool/process that helps my business clients move forward.
"I've seen more information on a frickin' sticky note!" - Dave Kreskowiak
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No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
Well, I'm not that old, but the people that are educated as an engineer in a discipline other than programming, sees it as a tool to do their work and little else, and the professors I had seem to have the same idea.
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I was worked with some glass lickers who thought calling themselves Software Developers was the answer. They'd explain this by saying software developers went beyond programmers by: [list of tasks you do in programming]. I'd point out that's exactly what programmers do. They'd get angry. Loop.
Play my game Gravity: Android[^], Windows Phone 7[^]
Funnny. I had a similar experience. Then I trapped them with logic, thus: "If this sentence is not untrue, then I'm right and you're wrong" -- they didn't understand that, of course, and thus the pseudo-proof failed - but at the same time, by failing, validated itself. So then I followed the advice a colleague of mine gave me years ago: "Step away, and Feel Superior!"
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Well, I'm not that old, but the people that are educated as an engineer in a discipline other than programming, sees it as a tool to do their work and little else, and the professors I had seem to have the same idea.
Well, sure... but programming's a bit more than that, really: I think (well, actually I know) that if you're deeply into it, then it becomes a mindset: it's not by accident that things like "The Tao of Programming" and thecodelesscode.com exist; programming bleeds into everything else in life, and changes you fundamentally as an individual.
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Well, I'm not that old, but the people that are educated as an engineer in a discipline other than programming, sees it as a tool to do their work and little else, and the professors I had seem to have the same idea.
I suppose, ultimately, that this either makes sense to you or it doesn't, and if it doesn't then you're not all the way there as a programmer yet: http://thecodelesscode.com/case/8[^]
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Dan Sutton wrote:
More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing,
To me, I don't like the term code monkey. That's menial, like I'm brainless. Anything else I can live with.
Dan Sutton wrote:
It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
It's because the industry is a lot more blurred now in what we do. Back in the day we didn't have as many roles like QAs, BSAs, et al sticking their hand in the development pot. As the industry got more complex and more titles hopped on board, we're no longer the end all be all to development. But that shouldn't make you feel bad, it just means we also have to broaden our horizons and continue to grow with the industry. Guys like us started our work lives with a very fresh and new industry around the dot com boom. That doesn't happen too often, especially on the magnitude of something globe changing like the Internet. Dilution of one single role is what happens with any industry that starts maturing.
Jeremy Falcon
Or vastly before the dot-com boom. . .
According to my calculations, I should be able to retire about 5 years after I die.
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Interesting. It'd be fascinating to get the ages of everyone who posts: I wonder if opinions like yours come from a different generation from mine (I'm 48 - been programming since 1979): perhaps I'm just old...
I'm 63 - been programming since 1967. I am older than all others in my department and started programming before my immediate manager was born. :sigh:
According to my calculations, I should be able to retire about 5 years after I die.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
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harold aptroot wrote:
why you should run like hell from business programming
Versus what exactly? Academics? Myself, businesses make money and I like getting paid.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Having read the thread, I can now respond. I am 51 and have been professionally employed designing and writing code since 1986. Having said that: Programmers are perceived as those that simply key in the code; they are not analysts Analysts are perceived as those that can think through an issue; they don't necessarily write the code Combintations of the two can think and code Architects are so far above the analsyis and coding that they sometimes forget that a foundation must be built And I expect a process to come crashing down in a few months because the solutions architects, application architects and data architects forgot to ask the people that actually support the underlying structure what simple level configuration is required (trusts, firewalls, application IDs... you know... the unimportant stuff). Tim
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Having read the thread, I can now respond. I am 51 and have been professionally employed designing and writing code since 1986. Having said that: Programmers are perceived as those that simply key in the code; they are not analysts Analysts are perceived as those that can think through an issue; they don't necessarily write the code Combintations of the two can think and code Architects are so far above the analsyis and coding that they sometimes forget that a foundation must be built And I expect a process to come crashing down in a few months because the solutions architects, application architects and data architects forgot to ask the people that actually support the underlying structure what simple level configuration is required (trusts, firewalls, application IDs... you know... the unimportant stuff). Tim
Yes - that's about right... I've always thought of "programmer" as including "analyst", but I take your point: an external perception might ignore it. Of course, "Architect" means something only to "Architects"! [Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
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I'm 63 - been programming since 1967. I am older than all others in my department and started programming before my immediate manager was born. :sigh:
According to my calculations, I should be able to retire about 5 years after I die.
That's the spirit!!
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Dan Sutton wrote:
don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas?
Wouldn't that make it an excellent description of most "programming" jobs?
Mine was never that kind of job. I did hardware system IPL. Dave.
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Mine was never that kind of job. I did hardware system IPL. Dave.
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Yes - that's about right... I've always thought of "programmer" as including "analyst", but I take your point: an external perception might ignore it. Of course, "Architect" means something only to "Architects"! [Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
Dan Sutton wrote:
[Quote from somewhere]: If (structural) architects designed buildings the way programmers design software, then civilization as we know it would collapse overnight!
Variant: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote software the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.
A positive attitude may not solve every problem, but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.
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In 1965 I left the Air Force as an EW, and found immediate employment at the relatively newly formed GE mainframe plant in my hometown of Phoenix. I started out in the hardware factory bringing up the hardware systems, then moved into the Test and Diagnostics area, then moved up to the Operating System area. 35 years later I retired, and never had to write a single line of HTML. Dave.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Twenty three years ago when I got my first job as a COBOL programmer for Norwich Union - that is all I did. I was given a specification and I just programmed and tested to the specification. We had business analysts, project managers and systems analysts. Now I work as a developer, this means being a business analyst, project manager, systems analyst and coder. That's why I don't call myself a programmer or coder as I help the business in its development of IT systems through business analysis, project management, systems analysis and programming.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens