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Language for non-programmers

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  • H Herbie Mountjoy

    How about PERL. A book I once read explains that PERL is written in simple English. But seriously folks... I vote for Python simply because it is quite easy to learn and it is free.

    I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.

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    tom1443
    wrote on last edited by
    #21

    +1 for Python

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    • M Mycroft Holmes

      PIEBALDconsult wrote:

      I argue that C# is simpler than VB.net anyway

      Possibly but if they have already worked with VBA then they have been polluted with the VB syntax and there is a learning curve to moving to c#. It is worth the cost in effort just to access the support resources on the interweb.

      Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH

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      PIEBALDconsult
      wrote on last edited by
      #22

      By the same token, with my C and C# experience I had difficulty learning the basics of VB.net ; old dog / new trick. I find VB.net just too restrictive and inflexible. I'm saying that for they with no experience in either of these two languages, the choice should be C#. A non-serious student with some experience with one of these two languages should probably continue in that language. Serious students, of course, need to learn several. I was speaking with one of my nephews-in-law this past weekend and he has learned some Java, Python, and C# so I think he'll be alright.

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      • H Herbie Mountjoy

        How about PERL. A book I once read explains that PERL is written in simple English. But seriously folks... I vote for Python simply because it is quite easy to learn and it is free.

        I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.

        P Offline
        P Offline
        PIEBALDconsult
        wrote on last edited by
        #23

        Learn Perl or die? :-D

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        • M mr_peter

          Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

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          R Offline
          Ron Anders
          wrote on last edited by
          #24

          thing is like whatever

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          • M mr_peter

            Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

            H Offline
            H Offline
            HarCohen18
            wrote on last edited by
            #25

            Perhaps something more agnostic and free to academia, like Ada (the GNAT and GPS products), courtesy of Adacore? I would have suggested Simula and Beta but they appear to be defunct. My first programming language was Algol, for freshman math labs, and I now work with C#/.NET. Yes we used keypunch and teletype machines. The first programming course I attended taught a pseudo-assembler that the instructor bench-checked before covering Basic, Fortran, and COBOL in a single semester. Teach students to build functions and procedures in VBA using Excel and Access. Those tools are not departing any time soon. Use the R language to teach data analytics if you like. Examine the web development features of Access as an advanced topic later in the introductory semester. Teach debugging skills with an interactive debugger. I consider debuggers the biggest productivity booster in an IDE. In conclusion, the initial language isn't terribly relevant. Languages will change. Whether students feel they can take things one step further on their own is key.

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            • M mr_peter

              Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

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              M Offline
              MarcusCole6833
              wrote on last edited by
              #26

              I feel for none coders the Apache LAMP / XAMMP / WAMPP stack is the best way to do this as the tools are free, and there resources to do the basics as to build a CRUD applications. As well for the more advanced there is the addition of Drupal and Wordress. Moreover, Drupal and WordPress can be used as a Web Development Tool . I started to learn to code at 38 and found using the XAMMp stack mostly PHP and mysql was eyeopening to say the least as I was able to build on a server and at home!

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              • M mr_peter

                Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

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                R Offline
                RedDk
                wrote on last edited by
                #27

                Merry XMas! Now that the formalities are covered. I'm outa here ...

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • M mr_peter

                  Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

                  S Offline
                  S Offline
                  snorkie
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #28

                  I like the idea of using Wordpress. Its a simple easy to use tool for creating all sorts of web content. Most importantly to me, it provides easy success for students. This builds confidence. Non technical students can do the minimum but have a useful skill for the future. Technical students can take it deeper and do very complex and exciting things. Since its written in PHP, you might consider using PHP and having students create a plugin to do something trivial like a tag cloud. PHP doesn't have any special requirements and it can be quickly uploaded to the site and tested. There are many examples of how to do this. Good luck!

                  Hogan

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                  • P PIEBALDconsult

                    Learn Perl or die? :-D

                    C Offline
                    C Offline
                    Charles Programmer
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #29

                    Humor. I like it.

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                    • M mr_peter

                      Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

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                      A Offline
                      amagitech
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #30

                      Javascript is the best programming language for new learner. Because web browsers are visual. That's funny for new learners.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • M mr_peter

                        Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

                        K Offline
                        K Offline
                        Keith Barrow
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #31

                        JavaScript, possibly under node:

                        • Plenty of free environments,framework etc
                        • Loose type system, idea for beginners
                        • Immediately applicable to the browser - no need to learn the into language, then JS
                        • Drives out the essential features common to most languages: variables, functions, methods, control flow

                        Given the scope of the course - I doubt whether a deep understanding of OO and type systems is really required, though you can achieve some of this it is clumsy (at least for versions under 6) and less strict than C#/Java etc.

                        KeithBarrow.net[^] - It might not be very good, but at least it is free!

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                        • M mr_peter

                          Apologies if this has been posted to incorrect forum. Feel free to suggest alternatives. Requirement: University unit must cover Web Site creation and Programming Concepts. Audience: A mix of students. Some have programmed. Others have not. Some will seek career in IT but not as code developers. Some are business students who just want exposure to some simple Web Dev. Question: Which prog language? Current Plan (very flexible): Cover very basic concepts of Web Servers, Web Browsers, HTML5 / CSS3. Enough to understand that a web page is a collection of files etc . Students will create some very simple web pages. Next, use WordPress instead of 'low level' HTML5 & CSS3. Students experience Themes, Plug-ins, configuration, backups etc. Many students create quite sophisticated sites. Previously VB.NET and VBA (excel macros) were used for programming. Negatives: * .NET requires purchase of s/w and install and .Net framework * VB syntax does not help newbies read/understand c-style syntax used in most other languages that they may experience * Simple desktop apps don't fit into web space * C# is OK, but cost, install, framework etc are still an issue Pluses: * Simple to learn. Useful code. Allows students to automate excel, or have little trouble writing a small scripts or even manage to write a simple stored procedure (they also do some DB work in other units) So, any suggestions on which language you think would be best in such circumstances? (The reason I'm asking this question here is that many people in my workplace have set ideas that haven't changed in years (decades?)). Thanks, Peter

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                          L Offline
                          Lost User
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #32

                          (70% of the world's "programmers" are self-taught ... I wonder what language they are using?). I think you're limiting yourself (and the students) by thinking in terms of a "language" ... you should be thinking in terms of a "stack" (and IDE); e.g. LAMP or Windows. In the case of Windows, I would suggest MS WebMatrix3; it contains all the elements you touched on including: freebeeness, easiness, language choice, videos, tutorials, templates, etc. It practically teaches itself ... no teacher required.

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